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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Update May, 9th,2018. This thread contains a lot of Images that were temporarily lost when Photobucket changed their Third party Hosting process. These can be viewed by installing a Hot Fix for Google Chrome and Mozilla FireFox. Search add-ons or extension for " Photobucket Link Hot Fix ". Install add-on and all of the old hosted pictures will appear!!!

Thought I'd post my parts list and some links to info for LS2/Yukon coil conversions. This first page will be updated as we find new info.


I will do a write up of of this, but it will take some time. Slowly gathering parts and money is tight. Plus it's freakin' cold outside and I have one of those Canopy garages in the driveway.

Here's my parts list so far:

1: 4 New OEM AC Delco LS2 (D514 ) coils from E-Bay. $16.98 x 4 = $67.92

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280774335148?item=280774335148&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

Edit: You can get the LS2 " Truck " coils ( D585 ) with heat-sink for about $25 to $30 on E-Bay or Amazon.com . These are aftermarket brands, but if you search you can find some good deals. Nothing wrong with used coils either. Used = OEM AC Delco and they last forever. The D585 Truck coils with the heat-sink are the most powerful of the LS2 series coils ( 120 mj's ). The D514's ( same as D581's ) are a close second ( approx 100 mj's ).

2: 4 LS2 coil wiring connectors. ( Available up to 24" in length at no extra charge ) $9.00 x 4 =$36.00 . Wrecking yard $10.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LS2-COIL-CO...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a6866a0ec


3: Updated Mar,4,2012:

Spark Plug cables can be the biggest challenge, but Vortex members have the answers. Lots of choices now. :)

For AEB :

NGK Spark Plug leads from a 2005 Chevy Optra $41.95 NGK #56006 ( Thanks to A2TDI for this tip :beer: ).

Edit: These fit AEB valve covers only. AEB's require a shorter spark plug tube because of the deep square well for the coil. Only downside to NGK's is that they are only 7mm....but they are GOOD 7mm wires. And they smell nice :laugh:

Link to pics of NGK leads on my AEB:

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...t-and-Info&p=75783583&viewfull=1#post75783583


For AWW, AWP etc ( all non-AEB ):

Note for none AEB valve covers, you can order the AAN plug leads from 034 Motorsport. Specify them unterminated and with LS2 coil boots. approx $135 ( LS2 coil boots may be slight extra cost ) Thanks to Aaron for this tip :beer: Magnecore, Kingsborne and Aurora can also custom make these leads.

http://www.034motorsport.com/ignition-solutions-plug-wire-set-audi-i5-dis-p-18156.html

Here is a picture AAN leads on an AWP motor ( Aaron's car ) as supplied from 034 Motorsport:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6802283066/

Update Mar, 4,2012:

Spartiati has found that Honda H22-VTEC plug leads fit AWP and AWW motors perfectly. The ability to use Honda leads opens up a huge number of choices for plug leads.

The H22-VTEC motors where plentiful on Honda Preludes and CRX's of the mid 1990's. NGK makes them in 7mm, and MSD in 8mm as does Taylor, Magnecore and Aurora.. These came on many Honda models in the mid 1990-s including Preludes and CRX's. ( Thanks to Spartiati for this tip :beer: )

My custom made Aurora leads with Honda H22 plug well boots and LS2 coil ends:



NGK part number HE65 ( 8019 ) in 7mm for AWP, AWW motors:

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/NGK-8019-Spark-Plug-Wire-Set-/76013214



Note: You will have to cut the coil ends off and crimp on LS2 coil terminals ( or use the " Ghetto " mod as mentioned later in thread )

Link to pictures of custom Aurora leads made for AGN valve cover. These are a perfect fit. Order 1995 Honda Prelude plug leads ( DOHC V-tec H22 engine ). Specify length of each plug lead and terminated on coil end with LS2 boots. Or you can specify the leads unterminated and then you cut to length and terminate yourself.

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...t-and-Info&p=77073325&viewfull=1#post77073325

Aurora custom made 8.5mm Ignition wires. Approx $95 cdn:

http://www.Auror****ctronics.com/Default.htm

Kingsborne custom made 8mm Ignition wires. Approx $45 us:

http://www.kingsborne.com/




Update April, 28,2014.

Taylor Pro Wires part #79210 apparently fit perfect for Coils mounted on top of Valve Cover. Correct LS2 coil ends and correct boots to seal plug wells. Short length ( 6" ) , but ideal for VC mounting. Wires are from 2003 to 2005 Dodge 5.7L Hemi. Thanks to [email protected] Soundworks for this tip :thumbup:








Update Mar,4,2012:

The LS2 coils have a special small diameter terminal ( Smaller than a spark plug terminal ).

MSD makes them. So does Kingsborne and other suppliers ( Standard Blue Streak etc ).
LT1 Optispark and LSx coil connectors are the same size.

LT1 straight coil terminal and boot = PN 3302 ( 2 per card )

LT1 90 degree terminal and boot = PN 3303 ( 2 per card )

LSx 45 degree terminal and boot = PN 3304 (2 per card )

Link to Kingsborne coil terminals and boots:

90 degree style. Coil boot. Package of 10 = $15.00 :

http://www.kingsbornewires.com/product-p/ab55be.htm

45 degree style. Coil Boot. Package of 10 = $16.00 :

http://www.kingsbornewires.com/product-p/12163659.htm


4: 10 ft Techflex 1/8" wire sleeving from 034 Motorsport. $5.80

http://www.034motorsport.com/wiring-solutions-tape-and-loom-material-techflex-18-section-p-210.html


5: 6 ft Heat resistant fiberglass wire sheathing, 1/4" diameter. $3.60

http://www.034motorsport.com/wiring...iberglass-sheathing-heat-resistant-p-272.html


6: 6 ft Heat resistant fiberglass wire sheathing,1/2" diameter. $11.40

http://www.034motorsport.com/wiring...aterial-fiberglass-sheathing-12-id-p-273.html


7: Deutsch terminal blocks. Edit: Going to use one 6 pin terminal blocks. Local supplier. $15.00

9: 12 v Relay and Circuit breaker . Wire direct to battery with a circuit breaker to eliminate high current load from ECU 12v feed wire. Local Supplier. $20.00


Edit: Total = $201.67 ( Plus shipping and Tax ).

So far this is looking pretty reasonable. Have to fabricate a bracket to hold the coils...but that should not cost more than $10.



LS2 Pin out's and wiring diagrams:



D = 12 V power = The same as 1.8t coil pack No.1 (power from the firewall connectors)

C = Trigger Sequencer Signal. the 1 to 5 V signal from the ECU = the appropriate color code from the ECU equivalent to the 1.8t coil pack pin 3.

B = Trigger ground back to ECU, in this case Pin 2 on ECU connector 1, the one with a brown wire with a white stripe, equivalent to the 1.8t coil pack pin 2.

A = Common ground for the coils, equivalent to pin 4 in the 1.8t coil pack diagram. ( Ground to Valve Cover ).

1.8T Coil pin-outs picture:

[/URL]


Further miscellaneous info:


EFI Express Billet Coil Bracket. ( Made for AAN 5 cyl, but seeing if Marc will make one for 4 cylinders. ):

http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=15&products_id=54

Source of Aluminium spacers used for making standoffs for brackets and coil spacers..

http://www.aluminumspacers.com/

Source for all sorts of electrical wiring, braided sleeving, extreme temp wire coverings and connecters:

http://www.wirecare.com/index.asp?

Update: Sept,16,2012. Added Dwell tables from thread

Stock ME7 ECU coil dwell. Thanks to Spartiati, ElRay and ejg385.



LS2 ( D585 ) coil Dwell


StockD585CoilDwell by BlackBird SR71, on Flickr

Update April 28,2014.

Added optimized Dwell Tables ( Aggressive Dwell ) provided by Spartiati ( Steve ) :thumbup:

These figures have been run successfully on D585 coils for the past two years, however this is a fairly aggressive Dwell Map on a high boost Hybrid Turbo engine. Always run the minimum Dwell necessary. Note: Read the discussion on maximum coil dwell beginning at Post #497 Be sure to adjust both RPM x Load and RPM x Voltage tables:

Click on link below to view direct link to Dwell Table picture that can be enlarged ( Ctrl & + ):

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k420/spartiati86/LS2CoilDwellTables_zpscefdeefe.jpg

 

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They also need monster dwell. If you dont have the means to adjust that, stock coils are better.
And for people like me that didn't know what dwell time is...

The dwell time is the amount of time the ignition coil primary has current running through it. So in a points ignition system, it is the amount of time the points are closed. There is only current sent to the spark plug when the points open. So if the dwell time is too short, the current in the primary coils of the ignition coil has not been able to build up far enough so there is not enough magnetic energy stored in the coil to give a good spark.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
They also need monster dwell. If you dont have the means to adjust that, stock coils are better.
Not according to the rather extensive testing done in the video and in the real world.

The sweet spot for LS2 coils is 5ms...but they will work fine all the way down to 2.5ms. All tested in the video link and confirmed on other forums. Maximum dwell tested was 10ms, but there were no appreciable gains to be had over 5ms. ( Comparison of 10ms to 5ms dwell time at 10:40 in the video )

At 5ms, the LS2/Yukon coils were happily jumping a .130" gap ( that is no misprint ) at high RPM.

3ms is the default dwell on most VAG ECU's. At 3ms dwell the LS2 coils are still far, far more powerful than any VW/Audi COP coil.

AAN guys ( UR Quattro ) have been using these for years with small dwells. So have DSM, Honda etc.
 

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From my vague memory the coil posted is the early LS2 coil (non heatsink) and acts like an LS1 coil. Much lower power, and needs 6ms dwell and has a similar, if not lower, output at 3ms dwell compared to stock coils.

The LS2 truck coil (noticeable by the large heatsink on the backside) is the one you're referring to and needs 5ms total dwell for full spark output.

[edit, I remember when I got that vid over email. Long time ago, see how vague my memory really is. In any case the heatsink coil is the one to go with, AND I wouldn't bother unless you can change dwell to the proper values]
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
From my vague memory the coil posted is the early LS2 coil (non heatsink) and acts like an LS1 coil. Much lower power, and needs 6ms dwell and has a similar, if not lower, output at 3ms dwell compared to stock coils.

The LS2 truck coil (noticeable by the large heatsink on the backside) is the one you're referring to and needs 5ms total dwell for full spark output.

[edit, I remember when I got that vid over email. Long time ago, see how vague my memory really is. In any case the heatsink coil is the one to go with, AND I wouldn't bother unless you can change dwell to the proper values]
Well I'm going to be e-mailing the author of the LSx coil test video, and ask him what the output is at 3ms, in both output voltage and millijoules. 3ms is typical of early VW/Audi pre-recall ECU's. ( The ones that VW reduced the coil dwell on to make the coils last longer )

Actually he tests the coils at the lower level of 3ms in the video, and the Yukon coil is still producing a substantial spark at .130" gap if you recall. Later on in the video he switches to 5ms for the real fireworks display. If you can read the oscilloscope value you can see the output voltage at 3ms. The LS2 coil tests very similar to the Yukon coil...not to the LS1 coil. The LS2 coil has much higher output than the LS1 coil. ( Clearly stated at 1:56 into the video ) And the Yukon coils require more dwell and amperage than the LS2 coils...not the other way around.

Aftermarket ECU vendors such as Eurodyne and Unitronics should easily be able to change dwell. And if you are using stand alone it's a no brainer.

And I have to disagree that dwell needs to be changes on anything but the highest output cars. The UR Quattro ( AAN 5 cylinder ) group have terribly weak factory coils, even worse than ours. For a while they were experimenting with 1.8T coils, but the consensus now is to just make the switch to LS2 coils. Note that the same factory ECU was driving both the AAN coils ( weaker than 1.8T coils ) , 1.8T coils and LS2 coils. So no dwell issues at all, and the AAN ECU's do NOT have a big dwell.

The UR Quattro forums have been doing a LOT more testing with these coils than the 1.8T. It is their research that convinced me to go down this path. Both LS2 and Yukon coils have been tried. I have to double check...but I believe that the Yukon coils were causing some issues with the ECU's and LS2's are now the recommended way to go.

The LS2/Yukon coils have been proven in the field to work at dwell points between 2.5 to 3ms with a very substantial spark. 5ms is better...but not 100% necessary.

Dwell times up to 10ms are useable, with output increasing up to 9ms...but not in a linear fashion. Some ultra high boost ( 40 psi ) drag engines have tried 10ms...but at the expense of shortened coil life.

I'll post up a DIY ( with results ) after I get all the parts and the weather warms up a bit. I'll also get back with further info from the Video author ( check his links...he has some interesting MAF testing ) and from the AAN forums.

I am also waiting to hear back from the Maestro Forums to see if dwell can be adjusted through Maestro or if it can be flashed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
If you haven't watched the Coil testing video...watch it in it's entire lenght.

Some key points in the video:

1: At 7:30 min. LS2 coil stated to be 30% more powerful than LS1.

2: At 7:56 min. LS2 coil at .030" gap.

3: At 9:14. LS2 coil .030" gap, 3ms dwell, low rpm.

4: At 10:24. LS2 coil .030" gap, 5ms dwell, low rpm.

5: At 10:40. LS2 coil at .030" gap, 10ms dwell, low rpm. No appreciable spark output gain over 5ms dwell. ( Note that may change at larger gaps, which simulate higher combustion pressures. )

6: At 16:24. Yukon coil at .130" gap, 5ms dwell, high rpm.

7: At 17:15. LS2 coil at .130" gap, 5ms, high rpm. You can see that the LS2 coil is no slouch compared to the Yukon coil.


Note that the author makes a couple of mental hiccups when testing the LS2 and Yukon coils. He gets the names mixed up. Halfway through he calls the LS2 coil an LS1 coil, and the Yukon coil an LS2 coil :screwy: Only does it the one time...but it can be confusing. Remember that he stated that he blew up the LS1 coil ( 6:44 in video ) ...it was never shown being tested.
 

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I can only get the vid to play to the 11min mark on my phone and then it freezes. I've purged it from my archives at some point, so I'll have to hop back online.

In the docs that Bruce produced from these tests he lists dwell for both the LS2 versions (truck and early) at 5ms running dwell and the LS1 at 6ms. Inconsistent with some of your snaps from the video.

It looked like (again on the phone so I can't see real big) that at 3ms the LS2 coil tested was about 2/3 the peak voltage and about 1/2 the duration, and from a spark energy perspective, will be quite lower, as power is proportional to the area under that curve.

I don't disagree that it might "be plenty" just pointing out that there will be tradeoffs if you can't adjust the dwell.

The ECU issues were probably caused by some of the noise supplied back on the trigger lines, or they weren't grounded properly. Usually it's best to put some extra caps in when running these coils.

In any case, no criticism. It's an interesting project and I just wanted you and others to be aware of the differences in these coils vs stock.

FWIW I have a set of LS2/Truck coils on my Mk3 if I ever get it running again ;)

PS: if you do talk to Bruce tell him Paul from KPTuned says HI!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I can only get the vid to play to the 11min mark on my phone and then it freezes. I've purged it from my archives at some point, so I'll have to hop back online.

In the docs that Bruce produced from these tests he lists dwell for both the LS2 versions (truck and early) at 5ms running dwell and the LS1 at 6ms. Inconsistent with some of your snaps from the video.

It looked like (again on the phone so I can't see real big) that at 3ms the LS2 coil tested was about 2/3 the peak voltage and about 1/2 the duration, and from a spark energy perspective, will be quite lower, as power is proportional to the area under that curve.

I don't disagree that it might "be plenty" just pointing out that there will be tradeoffs if you can't adjust the dwell.

The ECU issues were probably caused by some of the noise supplied back on the trigger lines, or they weren't grounded properly. Usually it's best to put some extra caps in when running these coils.

In any case, no criticism. It's an interesting project and I just wanted you and others to be aware of the differences in these coils vs stock.

FWIW I have a set of LS2/Truck coils on my Mk3 if I ever get it running again ;)

PS: if you do talk to Bruce tell him Paul from KPTuned says HI!
Thanks for the interest and incite :beer: I would have loved to see Bruce's documentation on this test.

One question that I have just come across. I'm wondering if the AEB ECU adjusts dwell and primary coil voltage dynamically. My plan was to provide a direct 12v feed through a relay to isolate the ECU.

However, after reading some of the coil dwell and coil voltage tables on VEMS forums I'm wondering if that is such a good idea. VEMS ( I think it was VEMS...it was late at night ) changes the dwell and coil voltage according to RPM. It's used as a coil cooling strategy.

I don't know if the AEB ECU uses dynamic voltage control. May be a mute point as I've also read that the LSX coils can do a certain amount of self regulation.

Bottom line. Will a straight 12v ( from a relay ) to the power terminal of the coil work? Might have to go to the UR Quattro forums to find that info... :banghead:
 

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Thanks for the interest and incite :beer: I would have loved to see Bruce's documentation on this test.

One question that I have just come across. I'm wondering if the AEB ECU adjusts dwell and primary coil voltage dynamically. My plan was to provide a direct 12v feed through a relay to isolate the ECU.

However, after reading some of the coil dwell and coil voltage tables on VEMS forums I'm wondering if that is such a good idea. VEMS ( I think it was VEMS...it was late at night ) changes the dwell and coil voltage according to RPM. It's used as a coil cooling strategy.

I don't know if the AEB ECU uses dynamic voltage control. May be a mute point as I've also read that the LSX coils can do a certain amount of self regulation.

Bottom line. Will a straight 12v ( from a relay ) to the power terminal of the coil work? Might have to go to the UR Quattro forums to find that info... :banghead:
I'm 99.999999999% positive our coils are connected to a flat 12V source.. nothing modified via the ECU. I wouldn't want to give the ECU the chance to mess with coil voltage anyways.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'm 99.999999999% positive our coils are connected to a flat 12V source.. nothing modified via the ECU. I wouldn't want to give the ECU the chance to mess with coil voltage anyways.
Yeah...I might be over thinking this. In Bruce's video he was using a straight 12v feed to the coils.

Was concerned whether or not the LSx coils " needed " dynamic voltage regulation from the ECU...but I think not.
 
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