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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi guys

Got a little not-so-nice sound, it happened 2-3 times the last couple of weeks.

Car: 2004 C5 A6 1.8T Quattro.

When i put in 1st gear, engaging the clutch and drive of the sound comes. (2-3 times the last couple of weeks)
Its like a metallic whine. Not quite like serpentine belt etc, but a much sharper wining sound. I noticed a little resistance at the same time, like someone tapped the break a little bit. Only lasted for 2 sec max.

Earlier I have noticed what I think is the same sound when shifting hard from 1st to 2. Or 2-3. Then the sound only lasts a quarter of a second, and comes at the same time i release the clutch.

No vibrations at idling, or anything else that could indicate the flywheel.

What do you guys think? Throw-out bearing? I'm planning a clutch/flywheel upgrade when I know what kit to order. (Struggling at the moment to find parts for 1.8T A6, see my other post)


Kim
 

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What happens if you hold the clutch pedal in for a longer period of time. Does the noise occur during that duration?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I will try that, thx for reply. What can I conclude with if the noise is there while pressing? Throw-out?

Got an habit of holding the clutch pressed down as little as possible, just so much I need for my next shift/move.
 

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Got an habit of holding the clutch pressed down as little as possible, just so much I need for my next shift/move.
That's good. You never want to be in the habit of riding the clutch, you just want to use it quickly for shifting like you said. The only reason I'm asking you to keep it pressed down for a longer duration of time is for testing purposes and it won't hurt anything to do it a few times. Yes, if the noise occurs while you are holding down the clutch pedal and goes away once you let the clutch pedal back up then it is undoubtedly the throwout bearing. It can occur for a few reasons. A common reason would be that the throwout bearing is actually just not so well lubricated anymore (the grease can dry up over time). If this is the case then one way to determine that is if the car has sat overnight and you start it up in the morning and keep the clutch pedal held in. If the whine noise occurs then, but does not occur with the clutch pedal held in later after you've driven, then this would suggest it is just a throwout bearing lubrication issue. If it doesn't follow this pattern then it could be that the throwout bearing is actually failing.


I noticed a little resistance at the same time, like someone tapped the break a little bit
This is the interesting part to me and suggests something else but will get into that after you've done the throwout bearing test. How many miles on the clutch and its other components. How many miles on the trans itself?


When i put in 1st gear, engaging the clutch and drive of the sound comes.
I want to clarify exactly what you mean by engaging the clutch? Do you mean literally when the clutch is starting to engage again (which is actually when you are letting the pedal back out) or do you mean when you are engaging the clutch pedal (which is actually when the clutch disc itself is disengaged)? Remember, when you are just driving along the clutch and other components are engaged, it's when you press the clutch pedal in that the clutch is temporarily disconnected so that you can shift the transmission... I just want to be clear on what you mean so that I know at exactly what moment and what part of shifting your noise is happening. Is is pedal in, or pedal out, or either?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
First of all, thank you for an awesome follow-up.

I have done some testing. The noise is definitely not there when pedal is down.


I want to clarify exactly what you mean by engaging the clutch? Do you mean literally when the clutch is starting to engage again (which is actually when you are letting the pedal back out) or do you mean when you are engaging the clutch pedal (which is actually when the clutch disc itself is disengaged)? Remember, when you are just driving along the clutch and other components are engaged, it's when you press the clutch pedal in that the clutch is temporarily disconnected so that you can shift the transmission... I just want to be clear on what you mean so that I know at exactly what moment and what part of shifting your noise is happening. Is is pedal in, or pedal out, or either?
I see what you mean. Sorry the unclear explaining. What I mean with engaging is when I release the pedal, the disc is gripping and the car moves.

The noise have also almost only occurred when I do this hard. 1-2, and sometimes 2-3. Its like its the disc itself slips a little bit and makes a squeak when it happens.

I have some experience with worn out clutches, but this is new to me.:p
 

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Well it doesn't fit the classic throwout bearing case but that doesn't necessarily discount it completely. It's hard to say for sure what it is at this point but it doesn't sound like that matters much since you're planning on replacing part soon. Just make sure you do a complete job; clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, and TO bearing and I'm virtually positive that will take care of it as I do not believe it's from the gearbox.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks again man, I really appreciate your help.

Yeah, I'm also pretty sure the problem will be gone after my much needed upgrade.

I just want to mention: The wining came on today, after I went of from a stop and lasted about 2 sec while I was accelerating in first gear. Could not feel any resistance tho.


Also, you seem like a guy who has some decent knowledge about this cars. Do you have any idea if the A4 clutch-kits will fit? You see, I still haven't found a kit for my car. Only stash for the 2.7 and 4.2 everywhere I look.

My thought is that it MUST fit from an lets say B6 or B7 A4 1.8TQ with the same longitudinal engine.(I have the AWT) I cant come up with any reasons it wouldn't fit, I just need to be sure before I order the stuff.



Kim from North Norway.:snowcool:
 

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Thanks again man, I really appreciate your help.

Yeah, I'm also pretty sure the problem will be gone after my much needed upgrade.

I just want to mention: The wining came on today, after I went of from a stop and lasted about 2 sec while I was accelerating in first gear. Could not feel any resistance tho.

Also, you seem like a guy who has some decent knowledge about this cars. Do you have any idea if the A4 clutch-kits will fit? You see, I still haven't found a kit for my car. Only stash for the 2.7 and 4.2 everywhere I look.

My thought is that it MUST fit from an lets say B6 or B7 A4 1.8TQ with the same longitudinal engine.(I have the AWT) I cant come up with any reasons it wouldn't fit, I just need to be sure before I order the stuff.
Hmm, my best guess with what we know so far is that either due to an issue with the TO bearing or pressure plate, or maybe even clutch disc itself, after the point of re-engagement when you let the pedal up the clutch is not engaging 100% correctly, at least not right that second, and is contacting in a way it shouldn't briefly and causing your metallic whine as it spins. The only potential problem with this theory is the issue you were having with resistance sometimes. If the "resistance" you perceived was actually resistance than that more or less shoots my theory down. IF you were mistaking resistance for something else (more on that in a second) then that probably confirms my theory even more. Let's discuss what I mean. If we're assuming my theory above is true then we are favoring the idea that the clutch isn't fully re-engaging immediately (which would usually be a TO/pressure plate issue) BUT if we're going on that assumption then true resistance would be the last thing you should have; it would actually be the opposite, power transferred to the transmission wouldn't be full. The clutch is certainly capable of essentially "braking" (that's partly what's going on when you downshift without rev matching) BUT the question is whether or not that is what is going on. Are you absolutely positive that what you're experiencing is a "braking" effect OR does it seem like braking because you aren't accelerating as fully as you should be for a second or two? If it is truly a braking effect than my theory as to what is going on is basically shot, but if you're mistaking the "braking" effect for a lack of power transfer then that probably confirms my theory.

I still don't think this seems like a gearbox issue for the most part but if you are having a braking effect along with this whining and new clutch kit doesn't fix it then gearbox is where you'll have to turn. For now, just for cheap insurance and because it can't hurt, you should flush the gearbox and put in some new gear oil (whatever you're using now for the sake of consistency of trans behavior). If you're using OEM just stick to OEM. The OEM VW/Audi gear oil is generally good stuff and there is little reason to use other brands, even good ones, unless for a specific purpose.


As for what to buy: I can give you plenty of advice on the parts themselves, what to buy and why, but I don't have very specific knowledge on your platform; the 1.8T platforms are not my specialty. My specific knowledge comes in on the 2.0T platforms on VWs (and some Audis) and the transmissions that come on those models. That being said, however, as long as the clutch parts you are looking at are meant for an Audi that has the same transmission (the trans has a code just like your engine does) then I don't see why it wouldn't work; at that point it'd just be a matter of making a phone call to the company just to see if they can confirm 100% but, yeah, if the transmission codes match up then I'd think you'd be fine.

What are your reasons for upgrading the parts? Is your car pretty significantly modified beyond the holding limit of the factory parts? If not I'd reconsider. While aftermarket clutch kits offer a sportier, more engaging driving experience (mostly due to the heavier pressure plate and lighter single-mass flywheel) they can come with their own issues and most often do NOT last as long as the factory clutches unless you are beating the snot out of your factory clutch and it isn't up to par with your modified power output. Exceeding the limits of the factory clutch because your car is more powerful than stock is about the only reason I'd ever recommend aftermarket clutch solutions, so UNLESS you are slipping your clutch if you are putting full power down and you're having to limit yourself while driving for the sake of the clutch then I'd steer clear of aftermarket.
 

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By the way, in case you get e-mail notifications when I post on your thread and read from there... I edited the above post significantly since I initially posted it since I thought of something else so it's going to be a lot different then whatever comes in your e-mail if you read from there... Just don't want you to possibly miss anything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Are you absolutely positive that what you're experiencing is a "braking" effect OR does it seem like braking because you aren't accelerating as fully as you should be for a second or two? If it is truly a braking effect than my theory as to what is going on is basically shot, but if you're mistaking the "braking" effect for a lack of power transfer then that probably confirms my theory.
When I think about it, the resistance have not occurred the previous situations. What I believe now is that I most likely let of the throttle as a reaction to the noise, one of the times it happened a long time ago.

when you let the pedal up the clutch is not engaging 100% correctly, at least not right that second, and is contacting in a way it shouldn't briefly and causing your metallic whine as it spins.
That is so well explained what it feels like when it happens. Never experienced something like that before tho. I guess my thoughts went to worst case scenario in the beginning, a potential moneypit.:facepalm:

As for what to buy: I can give you plenty of advice on the parts themselves, what to buy and why, but I don't have very specific knowledge on your platform; the 1.8T platforms are not my specialty. My specific knowledge comes in on the 2.0T platforms on VWs (and some Audis) and the transmissions that come on those models. That being said, however, as long as the clutch parts you are looking at are meant for an Audi that has the same transmission (the trans has a code just like your engine does) then I don't see why it wouldn't work; at that point it'd just be a matter of making a phone call to the company just to see if they can confirm 100% but, yeah, if the transmission codes match up then I'd think you'd be fine.
I think I found my answer: https://www.mecatechnic.com/en-GB/conversion-kit-for-the-dual-mass-system-for-a4-b5-b6-a6-c5-18-18-turbo_AS37850K.htm
What do you think? Not the greatest source, I definitely gonna dig a little deeper. I have been in contact with 034 Motorsport earlier and the guy i spoke to said that he would check it up. Never heard anything after that.

What are your reasons for upgrading the parts?
First of all, the car is engine wise bone stock. I bought the car in Mars this year and we had lots of snow this winter. I'm a very "spirited" driver. The guy who wants upgrades that makes the car perform better. Lighter, stiffer, more feedback, faster 0- and -0. You know where I'm at. When I'm having fun/practicing car-control (Only in closed areas;)) I sometimes use the clutch to rev up and release when I need power quick. I feel this has a lot to do with the relative low engine torque. Etc handbrake u-turn(Last generation A6 with good old handbrake), to continue sideways from 2-3 etc. Pretty much giving the clutch a good beating from time to time. To soft gripping point characteristics and generally lots of burnt smell. The clutch also engage/disengage when the pedal is almost at its top, all of this indicating to me that it is ready to be replaced. I want some heavier duty, something that can withstand my use and eventually future engine upgrades. Always thought a heavy duty clutch on a low powered car would last forever? :confused:

About the flywheel. I've heard rumors that the DM is prone to fail eventually. And unnecessary for "spirited drivers". A "must" along with clutch upgrade I thought. I always want things with benefits you know. What issues are you talking about? All I can see is better, better in every way for me.:laugh:

Thanks again man, I appreciate it.
 

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I have been in contact with 034 Motorsport earlier and the guy i spoke to said that he would check it up. Never heard anything after that.
034 doesn't sell clutch kits, as far as I know, so they aren't gonna help you.

When I'm having fun/practicing car-control (Only in closed areas) I sometimes use the clutch to rev up and release when I need power quick.
If you want power more quickly, for example when coming out of a corner on a track or what have you, you're supposed to rev match down to an appropriately lower gear so that you're back in the ideal powerband for maximum power. You're not supposed to do what sounds like the car-equivalent of "popping the clutch" on a motorcycle. That's an awful idea; not only for your car but because if you're using the clutch to shortcut to higher revs you're jipping yourself... you might feel like you're making more power because you feel it kick on suddenly after dropping the clutch but you're actually not. Small turbo cars don't make nearly as much power at high revs as they do at low revs. Your ideal powerband on that thing is probably like 2000RPM-4500RPM. Once you get past that the little turbo runs out of breath and you have diminished returns power-wise. You just think you're getting more power b/c of how it feels but you're not getting yourself anywhere faster. If you haven't already then I suggest you learn some proper clutch work (look into rev matching and heal-toe techniques, or start out easier with double-clutching) down into lower gears to achieve max power on-demand. You'll get more out of it and your car will thank you.

It sounds like you're interested in becoming a better and faster driver (as opposed to just having a few grins in a parking lot) so keep in mind it's all about technique not tricks like that clutch popping thing and the e-brake turns. You're going to kill your car doing this sort of stuff enough and it's not making you a better driver.

Pretty much giving the clutch a good beating from time to time. To soft gripping point characteristics and generally lots of burnt smell.
Yeah if you smell your clutch it means you're abusing it, usually occurs when it starts slipping because it has been thermal shocked/glazed and it got that way because of what you described above. You're also physically shocking those parts when you load up and drop the clutch like that, they aren't meant to withstand that repeatedly. I am virtually positive that your noises and issue you made this thread around are a result of this abuse.

I want some heavier duty, something that can withstand my use and eventually future engine upgrades. Always thought a heavy duty clutch on a low powered car would last forever?
Future engine upgrades, if you're pretty positive they are going to happen, is a good reason to upgrade your clutch and related parts. The rest of this stuff is honestly not. It's not quite as simple as "heavy duty clutch on lower powered car lasts forever". It is true that the pressure plate with a higher clamp load rating and the upgraded clutch disc with a higher metal content (feramic, sintered iron, etc.) will be able to handle more abuse, in general, but with the way you are treating your clutch there are no guarantees that you won't still screw them up because they just aren't meant to be operated that way. Let me be clear: I'm not saying they aren't meant to handle a lot of power, I'm saying they aren't meant to handle it in the way that you are demanding, not routinely anyway. Would they hold up to your abuse mostly? There's a decent chance, yes. But there is no guarantee because it's not the right way to use them. Let me give you an example of how it could go wrong. Feramic/sintered iron clutch discs can tolerate higher loads/temperatures than your typical organic type discs (OEM) BUT because of their design and composition IF you do happen to thermally shock one those aftermarket discs (especially the sintered iron ones) will absolutely not tolerate it. If you glaze a sintered iron dics it's game over, that things holding capacity is going to be shot. Organic type OEM discs are much more forgiving in that way. Yes, they can't handle as much heat but you can slip them many times and they will keep operating fairly well under normal, non-abusive conditions most of the time. I've had stock clutches slipping for over a year when I pushed them beyond their limit and they'd always bounce back and work for me until I pushed them too hard again. Also, those organic discs last a looooong time if you don't abuse them beyond their capabilities. They are intended to last and to be able to handle bad drivers, they are forgiving because the car manufacturers can't assume that everyone buying their cars actually knows how to drive a manual correctly. The same cannot be said about the high metal discs from aftermarket kits, they typically don't last as long, they just aren't intended to nor does the material the disc face is made from intended for longevity. Traffic and hills can be difficult to handle with those sort of clutches because they are less forgiving than OEM and feathering the clutch (to the extent that you even can) in traffic or on a hill is not good on them. I'm not saying you can't get plenty of life out of one (like 50k or better if you don't kill it) but don't expect it to go well past 100k miles or even 200k like some OEM clutches do as long as they aren't abused. And don't expect it to necessarily tolerate the stuff you said you do... it might, it might not. That's not a chance I'd want to take with my money.

I'd change my driving habits but everyone is free to drive their car however they choose to. Your car, your choice. I'm just sharing my opinion and I'm not trying to be a kill-joy, for the record. I am just trying to help.

About the flywheel. I've heard rumors that the DM is prone to fail eventually. And unnecessary for "spirited drivers". A "must" along with clutch upgrade I thought....All I can see is better, better in every way for me.
The DMF is a two-piece design (basically 2 single-mass flywheels slapped together) with springs inside to allow them to move independent of each other with the purpose of absorbing some of the vibrations so as to have a smoother and quieter operating system. Due to this they are more complex than a SMF and also quite a bit heavier. The complexity has a catch and you called it; they are more prone to failure. Now don't read into that too much. It doesn't mean they are very prone to fail, it just means they are more prone to failure than a SMF and a SMF practically can't fail because it is a slab of metal with no complexity whatsoever. Point being, the DMF is known to fail in a certain way (internal due to the spring system) but it's not all that common as long as it isn't being abused. I'd rate it as a pretty low concern, but yes it is a concern nonetheless. The heavier weight of the DMF compared to the lighter weight of the SMF affects revs. I touched on this in one of my previous posts. The heavier DMF has more inertia to overcome which means two important things: 1) it makes a car rev up a bit slower; 2) it makes a car rev down a bit slower (rev hang). Both are due to the weight. A SMF would allow the car to rev up a bit quicker. Not much more to say there, that's good. What about revving down slower? Well your average motorist may like that but performance drivers prefer a car that revs down more quickly and one main reason is that when you go to rev match a downshift the revs drop quicker during that brief moment you have your clutch pedal in and so they meet your rev match more easily. It's somewhat over-rated though, it's plenty easy to rev match correctly on a car with a DMF if you get used to it.

There is really only one downside to a SMF. Your cars DMF and the crank pulley on the crankshaft are designed to complement/balance each other's weight perfectly on your particular engine. Introduce a flywheel that is much lighter and you can imagine that this balance is totally shot. The affects of this are debated on and on and on. Some cite it as a huge problem (for reasons not worth getting into), some say not such a big deal. I'm sorta in the middle on that and the deciding factor for me is just how light the flywheel is. If I was going to get some 13lb aluminum flywheel which is about half the weight or less than the DMF (which I'd never do) I would at least get an appropriate Fluidampr crank pulley to complement it. However, I'd probably go somewhere in the middle and get a good solid steel 19lb flywheel (still much lighter than stock but not too light) and totally dependable, then I'd probably not rush to get the Fluidampr crank pulley. Maybe would at some point but wouldn't be too concerned without it.

__________________________

What's the takeaway form all this?... Well if you want my opinion here it is:
1) Find out what the holding capacity of your stock clutch parts are (how much torque they can handle). The info is somewhere on the web or a phone call away to somebody. Their capacities are probably a decent bit higher than what the car actually puts out.
2) Figure out how much the maximum power you expect to be making someday is with your plans and budget for the car and if it gets close to the what the stock parts can handle then don't get stock parts, otherwise you should just get stock parts and not abuse them. If you're realistically just planning on getting a stage 1 chip then you may be fine on stock parts. If you are gonna go bigger than the stock parts probably won't hold up.
3) If you decide stock parts are not the way to go then get a aftermarket kit that is as close-ish to stock as can be but still beefier. That means a good clutch disc that is similar to the organic OEM compound but with higher thermal threshold and a lighter but not super light SMF (around 19 or 20lbs). South Bend has stage 2 and stage 3 "daily" clutch kits meant to be close-ish to stock but much stronger. They aren't complete **** in traffic or on hills like a race clutch but they still have a fairly sporty clutch feel and they have a organic disc similar to stock but they can hold way more power than stock. You can get them with a steel SMF that are usually 20lbs or a bit lighter. They are supposed to be pretty reliable kits all-in-all. I don't trust too many aftermarket clutch kits personally. I don't know if South Bend makes kits for your car but they make A LOT of different kits so it wouldn't surprise me if they do. Don't just get the beefiest one possible unless you plan on getting a big turbo in the future or something. A stage 2 kit should be sufficient for a majority of power mod options you'd be considering unless you're planning on some serious work in the future (the kind that would also necessitate building your motor with aftermarket internals, etc.). The beefier the kit (as in the more it is rated to handle) the harder it will be for DD purposes and there is a chance the pressure plate could be too much for your OEM throwout bearing to operate which would be a big problem (unless you can find a stronger aftermarket TO bearing too).

There you go, that's my opinion on all that for what it's worth. Hope it was worth how long it took me to type lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
034 doesn't sell clutch kits, as far as I know, so they aren't gonna help you.
Yeah, I just remember seeing the Southbend kit in their webshop.

Awesome reply of you tho.

Lots of good info. Mostly new to me, some not. (Heel'n toeing is something I've been doing since 2010):facepalm:(Not relevant, but felt an urge to point that out to you.):laugh: The popping is something I used mostly when playing/training on snow. Never when being time-efficient thru corners, and definitely never on asphalt. The clutchpopping stops tho. No doubt about that.:rolleyes: I just thought it would hold up when being on loose surface. Made it a (bad obviously) habit in a Grand Turismo 6 rig many years ago when playing around on rallystages.

Very interesting stuff to read about the clutches and flywheels. I can see clearly now why you wouldn't recommend me a heavy-duty/sport clutch alone without power upgrades, or any other good reasons to do so. You also explain very well the cons/pros of these type of clutches. A solid upgrade to my own knowledge, and probably many other who read this. I will definitely take all this in consideration when making my future moves.

Thanks again Thy for taking your time, you are a good man.:heart:
 

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Oh yeah I totally forgot 034 sells SB kits, scratch what I said then, but I still wouldn't expect much without follow-up phone calls and nagging. I don't usually get a whole lot out of aftermarket companies whenever I'm looking for specific info. I'd have to say that HSTuning has been the most responsive shop/retailer I've dealt with.

As for your driving habits, I must have misunderstood what you said with regard to the clutch popping in snow and so forth and thought your driving habits were a lot worse than it sounds like they actually are. My mistake, glad to hear it's not as bad as I first thought and that you do use proper clutchwork on a course, etc. :)

Still you wanna avoid ever smelling your clutch. Not sure what context that was in, whether it was during the clutch popping in snow or something else, but if you smell that you're likely impacting the life of your clutch. This might be a bit of a purists statement but I don't think you should ever smell your clutch unless you're doing a really hard launch and have no other option but to max it out basically, but I even don't recommend it since a controlled and measured launch is the best launch.

I'm glad I could help out, just wish I could be more help on the actual finding of a compatible kit. Just make sure its compatible with the same trans code as yours and you should be set. Let me know what you go with when you decide.
 
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