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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys,

This thread has been something I’ve been busting to post, and now the time is right so here it is.. Yeah I’m sure it’s going to piss off a few people, but that’s life. :facepalm:

Most here know that I’m building a big turbo GTI and that I’ve had my share of issues. The time it has taken, and the level of frustration I’ve experienced trying to push the limits of TSI tuning simply due to a lack of high performance upgrades and knowledge. I have sat by and watched Performance companies introduce products that I knew were flawed, or required you to buy their entire kit. Thanks to a highly knowledgeable and respected performance company I was able to get the advice I needed and the performance parts I wanted as they had the knowledge and know how.

This car has been a 14 month learning process for me. What I’ve done, no one has done and no one planned on doing.

I have assembled, and disassembled my TSI no less than 5 times… I’ve had 3 sets of pistons in it… and thrown thousands and thousands of dollars at it in development.

For the record : CP & JE still make incorrect TSI drop in pistons....STILL… I have two sets of pistons that are paperweights as a result of this. (do you really know what your compression ratio is??)

Mahle Motorsport is the only company that makes correct TSI pistons which are custom made for a certain vendor.

The hold up in my build was injectors. I know I need more fuelling and I know the injectors i need "do not exist" . I have been searching long and hard for TSI injectors , there have been rumours and myths about what injectors work and what do not. Some people said the Volvo units works. A quick Google search will show how much (mis)information is available! Volvo never made a DI motor. :banghead:

A few months ago I contacted a vendor as I was desperate and needed help. We know Unitronic has "larger TSI injectors" and we also know APR has larger TSI injectors. When I asked in countless threads what or where the injectors are from it is always top secret, nobody would tell me for love nor money. I wasn’t going to let that stop my build so I prompted said vendor to help me out anyway they could.

Now there are 3-4 basic DI body styles and most are manufactured by Bosch (if this information needs rectifying then someone please contribute). I am going to call the FSI - Body 1 and the TSI body 2

- OEM 2.0 FSI BPY motor Bosch Part # / OEM Part # = 06F 906 036 A | 0 261 500 020
- OEM 2.0 TSI CCTA motor Bosch Part # / OEM Part # = 06H 906 036 E | 0 261 500 059

So the hunt was on to find the elusive "30% larger" injectors. We started with the basics....ordering larger injectors within the VAG world. Audi R8 , Audi C6 RS6 , Audi B8 S4...etc. All of the those run Body 1 injectors.
Ok what other vehicles out there are Direct Injected? Ferrari? Lamborghini? Porsche?

All of these companies sell matched sets of injectors and the Ferrari units are over $5000+....no matter how many ways you split it I knew these were not what we were looking for. So it’s not VAG and it’s not an exotic so what could it be? :mad:

think cheap and think domestic.. Ford & GM….

Enter Ford Ecoboost Motors… They’re Direct Injected and receiving a lot of press at the moment.

- VAG 2.0 TSI engine =1984cc / 4 = 496cc per cylinder & 207hp / 52hp per cylinder
- Ford 2.0 Ecoboost motor = 1999cc / 499.75cc per cylinder & 252hp / 63 hp per cylinder
- Ford 3.5 Ecoboost motor = 3496cc / 582.66cc per cylinder & 355hp/ 59.2hp per cylinder

Ok so by process of elimination we went for the Ecoboost 2.0 units. My mistake just saved you your hardship. Ford 2.0 Ecoboost injectors do not work. Order up the 3.5 V6 units then only to discover Ford 3.5 Ecoboost injectors do not work.

Sad Panda (not to be confused with Angry Panda Racing).:(
Time to dig deeper... Time to spend MORE money… Enter GM Ecotec Motors. Again:

- VAG 2.0 TSI engine =1984cc / 4 = 496cc per cylinder & 207hp / 52hp per cylinder
- GM LNF 2.0 Turbo Ecotec engine = 1998cc = 499cc per cylinder & 260hp/ 65hp per cylinder.

Holy ****, they fit. FOUND IT. ;)
The injector that has been so elusive that flows more than stock (exact % will not be disclosed at this time as I do not want to upset any advertisers with my findings....) is from the GM 2.0 Ecotec motor:

- GM LNF 2.0 ECOTEC OEM Injector Part # / Bosch Part # : 12636111 / 0 261 500 112.

You will also need the corresponding harness for it in order to splice into your own harness: GM Part # - 1258944

Attached is a picture I took of the injectors once I confirmed their operation, this is back on the 20th June 2012

L-R: GM Ecotec, VAG TSI, VAG RS4.



Now, go forth and make power chidlren...
 

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I am truly impressed. I watch my boys every day in our shop work on their project car and I know and appreciate the hard work it takes. Good luck on the rest of the build.
 

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Good job Sir!
Fits perfectly for Ethanol......
:thumbup:
 

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Way To Go!!!:thumbup::thumbup:

You may have just brought back VWVortex to it true nature. (Sharing) :cool:

And I agree to the remark about the "Tuners" releasing products that have not truly been tested. ie. Software, inj. CAI and other things.
 

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It's possible that the apr stg 3 injectors are the same as the Chevy ones, correct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
word up!
Good job, how much do these injectors cost?
Any idea how much they flow?
About $1000 for the set with a harness.

great work. any idea on flow of these injectors? and whats the difference between these and apr stage 3+ injectors?
Flow rate no idea, depends on pulse width.. differences... nothing i suspect apart from some part numbers that are removed.

It's possible that the apr stg 3 injectors are the same as the Chevy ones, correct?
You tell me..



 

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They look VERY similar but there does appear to be some differences, at least it looks that way when I zoom in real close.

On the big "cylinder part" of the APR injectors there is a 2nd ring around it that isnt present on the GM injectors.
Plus where the "shaft" meets the cylinder part that looks to be slightly different.
I wouldnt be surprised if APR works over the injectors and does some magic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
They look VERY similar but there does appear to be some differences, at least it looks that way when I zoom in real close.

On the big "cylinder part" of the APR injectors there is a 2nd ring around it that isnt present on the GM injectors.
Plus where the "shaft" meets the cylinder part that looks to be slightly different.
I wouldnt be surprised if APR works over the injectors and does some magic.
LOL.... those pictures are BOTH APR injectors.. the top picture are the injectors from steelcurtain's build.

Stock vs. GM.

 

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$1000?

I'm assuming when you list your location you mean the real Sydney, in the land of Oz and not some hick town in some generic state or province!?

If you are in the land of Oz, was that $1000 Aussie dollars shipped to you? Do you get any 270hp Ecotec motors in Oz?
 

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BMW's new 2.0T?

I know that BMW has used Bosch for fueling for a long time. Might be another option.

Their motor puts out about 245hp
 

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A vast majority of HDEV 5 injectors look the same, including those from Bosch Motorsport. That does not mean they have the same spray patterns (holes/angles/etc), flow rates, etc.

I'm sure many have seen this. It's Bosch Motorsport HDEV 5 Product Literature:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/components/injection_valves_HP/HDEV_5.pdf

Bosch Motorsport HDEV 5 Photo (Looks nearly identical to our Stage 3+ injectors):


The same holds true for other GDI platforms.

I wouldn't install other injectors in an engine without pretty extensive testing, which will includes software calibration changes to run and operate correctly if they are any different than your OEM injectors. It's important to pay close attention to spray pattern operation at full operation pressures (100-200 bar) to avoid washing the cylinder walls and such. I'm not aware of any GDI injector stand that can operate much over several bar of pressure, except through OEM suppliers test labs.
 

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Stock vs. GM.




Since currently some of this information is based on looks alone, it should be noted the injectors above don't look the same as the ones provided in the APR Stage 3+ turbocharger system.



Specific notes

- One has a ring near the back of the large barrel part of the injector. The other doesn't.
- One has a ring on the thin barrel part of the injector. The other doesn't.
- Teflon seal color's are different.
- Exposed metal near fuel rail connection vs plastic the whole way.
- Etc. That's all I can really tell from those photos.

And, from another thread:

 

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I know that BMW has used Bosch for fueling for a long time. Might be another option.

Their motor puts out about 245hp
BMW injectors are quite different. They are Siemens VDO and approximately 7" long. You would need some serious modifications to fit those. I have one sitting on my desk.
 

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Close but yet so far...
Everything you posted has been common knowledge since fsi guys started to use rs4 injectors. Sure just because someone can google di injectors and visually verify it works, doesnt mean it works well or better then others. Why not post the actual flow data of the different ones at varying pressures?You have already pissed some vendors off so why hide behind that? If this thread isnt locked by now, then it wont be.

Im not saying the injectors wont work because i havent tried them personally, but i will say there are better ones then the ones you posted and Apr may use those.:thumbup:
 

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I'm feeling some tension from APR :laugh:

Companies like APR sell turnkey guaranteed and supported solutions. To most, that is completely worth the money they charge - myself included.

Pioneering like this though (from SammyVR6) is what's going to pave the road for all of the kids that will be running BT setups in our cars 10 years down the road where all the figuring out has been figured out.

Great thread and awesome information!
 

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I'm feeling some tension from APR :laugh:

Companies like APR sell turnkey guaranteed and supported solutions. To most, that is completely worth the money they charge - myself included.

Pioneering like this though (from SammyVR6) is what's going to pave the road for all of the kids that will be running BT setups in our cars 10 years down the road where all the figuring out has been figured out.

Great thread and awesome information!
No tension here. We hashed it out on another forum.

http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43120&page=3

I'm simply pointing out the obvious. The injectors above are not the APR injectors. :thumbup:
 
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