[AutoX-FIB]

Hi Everyone,

So I'm thinking about buying an already fairly heavily modded 84 Rabbit GTI track car. Given that "reversing" some of these mods out of the car would not be an option due to a lack of stock parts or difficulty (i.e. I do not have a full stock interior for it) I can't really see myself trying to remove parts and bring it up to a different class level. So for the most part "it is what it is" to me at this point. Frankly the point of me owning it is to have FUN with the car. I will not be butt hurt if I am noting winning autocrosses with it. I will also be trying to do some occassional HPDEs with it as well.

I would like to get some advice on what class it would be considered for SCCA, and what kind of competition I would probably face with it.

So here's the full mods done to it:

Engine

Modded airbox
Dubspeed intake
Audi 5K throttle body w/ ported intake manifold
TT 280 cam & valve springs
Pacesetter header
BFI oil pan and windage tray
Neuspeed adjustable cam sprocket
Autotech intermediate shaft sprocket
G60 valve cover
Eurosport "Race" Exhaust
USRT short shift kit
Autotech 10.4mm plug wires
16V clutch
Eurospec litghtened flywheel
ATL "Well Cell" Fuel Cell
ATL surge tank
Aeroquip braided stainless steel fuel hoses
Aeroquip aluminum fuel line fittings
Allstar Performance valve cover breather catch can
VW Motorsports Tranny mount
Poly motor mounts thoughout

Wheels and Tires

15" Jax Light wheels, 205/50 Falken Azenis

Chassis
Custom made lower 4 point X brace
Poly steering rack bushings
Eurosport upper strut brace
Eurosport rear strut brace
Hawk HPS front pads w/ slotted rotors
Scirocco 10.1" brake swap
Tilton proportioning valve
Battery relocated to p/s floor board
Neuspeed Race springs w/ Bilstein Sport shocks
Neuspeed rear sway bar

Exterior
Hella e-code lights with Sylvania Silverstar bulbs
Clear turn signals
deleted rear wiper
Cabby tail lights will filler panel
OMP hood pins
scirocco single wiper conversion
Allstar Performance master battery disconnect switch

Interior
Schroth Rallye 3 belt
Corbeau Forza seat
Autometer shift lite
Autometer Pro Comp gauges (oil temp, oil pressure, volt, water temp, fuel level, A/F ratio, tach and speedo)
Longacre Ignition and start switch panel
STRIPPED interior (dash, seat and door panels are left)

So what do you guys think this would fall into for an SCCA class?

What kind of cars would I be competing with in this class?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[flyinglizard]

I think that if you remove the cam ,you can run in Street prepared. Maybe FSP
If you leave it and run the modded engine you will be in full prep race car or Prepared.
Run through the classes. Dont really worry about it. Just go have fun.
The tech person will help you with class.

The best fun will be racing a friend in the same car. leave two seats in it and learn as you go.
IMHO. MM

 

[AutoX-FIB]

One thing that I should mention and I want to ask about is the wheel and tire choices.

The Azenis on there right now appear to be just about shot, so It's highly likely that I'll replace them as soon as I can.

I'm also wondering if would would have been considered the stock wheel?

If the current wheel and tire combo weighs heavily on my points I'd be open to go to a more street orientated setup.

If it doesn't and the car is damned into Prepared anyway I might think about some Hoosier A6's.

 

[AutoX-FIB]

I think that if you remove the cam ,you can run in Street prepared. Maybe FSP
If you leave it and run the modded engine you will be in full prep race car or Prepared.
Run through the classes. Dont really worry about it. Just go have fun.
The tech person will help you with class.

The best fun will be racing a friend in the same car. leave two seats in it and learn as you go.
IMHO. MM

The cam weighs pretty heavily for points doesn't it?

I recall with great dismay how much that hurt the MK3 Jetta GLX I had. It made that car a Street Mod car which would have been racing against EVOs and STis with Turbo upgrades.

I could maybe see pulling this if it were to that great of an advantage to me points wise. I don't forsee that happening this year if I buy it though.

 

[MacDubois]

While I'm not well versed on classes above street-mod, I know the stripped interior puts you into prepared. Should be E-prepared, Assuming you are heavy enough (don't think it is a problem). You won't be 100% competitive with your car but regionally you should still be close enough to have fun. You can run whatever tires you like, unlike street classes you can run true race rubber, not just R-comps.

I have no idea what competition in your region is like, but a quick review of nationals results shows: AE86, EF civic SI, EF CRX, Mk1 Jetta. Basically EP is the heavily modded 4cyl class so with a few exceptions, very similar vehicles to yours.

 

[AutoX-FIB]

While I'm not well versed on classes above street-mod, I know the stripped interior puts you into prepared. Should be E-prepared, Assuming you are heavy enough (don't think it is a problem). You won't be 100% competitive with your car but regionally you should still be close enough to have fun. You can run whatever tires you like, unlike street classes you can run true race rubber, not just R-comps.

I have no idea what competition in your region is like, but a quick review of nationals results shows: AE86, EF civic SI, EF CRX, Mk1 Jetta. Basically EP is the heavily modded 4cyl class so with a few exceptions, very similar vehicles to yours.

Thanks! After doing some more research I came to the same conclusion as you. Looks like the car would be EP. Seeing the list of cars you mentioned in the nationals results makes me feel better about the competitiveness of the car too. CRXs are no slouch, but at least I think I'll be in the same ball park power and weight wise to these cars. Good to know. :thumbup:

 

[flyinglizard]

I just built a set of long stud ball joints for the 17mm knuckles, A 1 ,early A2,. I should have the part #s and specifics on the website in the next few weeks.
Now to get Coleman to make the studs..

 

[-RalleyTuned-]

Thanks! After doing some more research I came to the same conclusion as you. Looks like the car would be EP. Seeing the list of cars you mentioned in the nationals results makes me feel better about the competitiveness of the car too. CRXs are no slouch, but at least I think I'll be in the same ball park power and weight wise to these cars. Good to know. :thumbup:

Dont be mistaken by the list of cars, Prepared is a rediculously fast class, and EP is no slouch class by any means. Depending on how your region is, you may be able to do ok, but if any cars show up that are prepared for national competition, they will blow your doors off. I would do a little bit of work and get the car into FSP, which is a perfect class for streetable mk1's

I drove an EP mk1 jetta a few times, the car put down nearly 140whp, had completely custom shocks and suspension components, weighed almost nothing as the car was stripped of every bracket and chuck of metal not needed (you could bend the hood in half). The car was mildly prepared for EP :laugh:

 

[AutoX-FIB]

Dont be mistaken by the list of cars, Prepared is a rediculously fast class, and EP is no slouch class by any means. Depending on how your region is, you may be able to do ok, but if any cars show up that are prepared for national competition, they will blow your doors off. I would do a little bit of work and get the car into FSP, which is a perfect class for streetable mk1's

I drove an EP mk1 jetta a few times, the car put down nearly 140whp, had completely custom shocks and suspension components, weighed almost nothing as the car was stripped of every bracket and chuck of metal not needed (you could bend the hood in half). The car was mildly prepared for EP :laugh:

I have no doubt that they will probably mop the floor with me regardless when I start out. That's the only crappy thing here to me. I'll be jumping head first into a big boy class.

What would it take in your opinion to land me in FSP?

And another question I'm pondering is should I decide to go nuts someday and drop in a 1.8T someday what class would I probably end up in? At that point it would mostly be to have fun, not to compete in SCCA

 

[-RalleyTuned-]

From my recolection, and its been a couple years since I looked even remotley into building an autox car, I think the biggest thing is the cam and possibly the fuel cell. FSP is a pretty stripped down street car, and you would have to go through the rules, but I think most of everything you have is ok in street prepared besides the cam.

I mean if you have no intention on being competetive, just go run TO (time only, no class affiliation) and go have fun. Building to a class only matters if you want to attain points and race competitively regularly.

A 1.8t would put you in Street Modified, which will put you up against evo's with unlimited hp and tire requirements etc (it is one of the fastest classes in autox haha). With that said, I ran my 16v rabbit in SM and did ok most days, but there was always a handfull of cars with terrible drivers that would blow me away without even thinking about it, but my little bunny did hold its own!

 

[AutoX-FIB]

From my recolection, and its been a couple years since I looked even remotley into building an autox car, I think the biggest thing is the cam and possibly the fuel cell. FSP is a pretty stripped down street car, and you would have to go through the rules, but I think most of everything you have is ok in street prepared besides the cam.

I mean if you have no intention on being competetive, just go run TO (time only, no class affiliation) and go have fun. Building to a class only matters if you want to attain points and race competitively regularly.

A 1.8t would put you in Street Modified, which will put you up against evo's with unlimited hp and tire requirements etc (it is one of the fastest classes in autox haha). With that said, I ran my 16v rabbit in SM and did ok most days, but there was always a handfull of cars with terrible drivers that would blow me away without even thinking about it, but my little bunny did hold its own!

Thanks! I think for the 1st year I'd really just be racing it to learn the car and TO is just fine with me. After that I'd give some serious thought to removing the cams if I was holding my own against local competition.

Running SM with a 1.8T sounds discouraging in that case. Years ago I had a MK3 Jetta VR6 and thanks to the cams the PO installed I would have been SM running against said gutted raced prepped Evos! At that point I said screw it and I went racing with a local VW and Audi only car club that did a full 6 event season. That made much more sense.

It amazes me that a mod that would probably typically gain 20 hp for an NA motor puts you up against vehicles with upgraded turbos. I just fail to see the logic behind that when they could be upping their HP by 40% or greater!

 

[-RalleyTuned-]

The more you look into SCCA the more you will see that specific cars work best in certain classes, mk1's are FSP cars and they fit that class the best. The car is blast to drive, you can put really nice suspension upgrades on it (speaking of, you need to upgrade asap if you want that thing to work around the cones!) mild engine tweaks (I think a G grind cam is allowed) and you have a competetive car without much mods from stock.

I think you would need to re-locate the cell to the stock location, remove the cam, and throw some carpet in. The front brake upgrade may not be legal, but its also really heavy and doesn't really do all that much for braking in all reality, especially in autox, when brakes are rarely used haha

Remember also, your first 3 events in SCCA you can run in the novice division also, so you can always feel out the local competition and decide if you want to fully get into running that class. Some regions are a hotbed for FSP cars and you really have to prep to the full limit and be an excellent driver to even touch a respective time, while others have a couple stock cars that run FSP because that is the closest class that fits, and with a stock rabbit you can blow their doors off :laugh:

 

[ps2375]

Pretty sure the "G" grind cam is not allowed in Street Prepared, as a motor swap would required the complete motor, not parts(like a head from this one, the block from that one) and that cam was never in a US spec motor.

One way to pic up some additional hp would be to lose the CIS and go standalone, like MS. Not having the airmeter on the intake is def worth hp. And in SP, the intake up to the head is "free" as far as mods go(w/ the exception of adding boost). Same with the exhaust from the head. I have not seen any rulings on the HD valve springs in a "legal"SP motor, but I would guess they are not allowed.

 

[4ceFed4]

If you add a passenger seat and the rear wiper back you can run in SMF (streed modified front wheel drive) as it sits now. If you leave the car as is you are in E Prepared. PAX difference is 0.875 vs. 0.852 in favor of SMF, so if you plan on competing regularly it is definitely worth your time to pick up that passenger seat and wiper arm/motor. Best part is if you ever do that 1.8T swap you are still in SMF, can't beat that!

The only other things that you didn't go into enough detail about that could snag you at the regional or national level with a protest is the size of the fuel cell, the mounting points of the custom x-brace, and the overall weight. Depending on your clarification you may need a larger fuel cell, to remove the x-brace, and to add ballasts.

 

[ps2375]

SMF is also a tough place to be, as the newer cars like the Mazda MS3's have tons of power and more tire than you can ever hope to put on this car. Depending on the type of course, tight or open, your car could have a good day.

 

[4ceFed4]

SMF is also a tough place to be, as the newer cars like the Mazda MS3's have tons of power and more tire than you can ever hope to put on this car. Depending on the type of course, tight or open, your car could have a good day.

Yes, but the PAX multiplier is the great equalizer. With the light weight of the MK1, you don't need all the tire that a MS3 or my MK4 needs to keep things planted.

 

[ps2375]

PAX multiplier is only used in overall results, has noting to do with times within class.

The car sounds like it is setup for prepared class, and could easily setup for SMF, and would be a lot of work to make it a Street Prepared car. And who knows if it will be competitive in any of them. That will depend upon many factors like driver, tires, course layout and suspension, LSD(and that mod is not on the mod list, but will make one of the bigger improvements to the car).

 

[4ceFed4]

PAX multiplier is only used in overall results, has noting to do with times within class.

The car sounds like it is setup for prepared class, and could easily setup for SMF, and would be a lot of work to make it a Street Prepared car. And who knows if it will be competitive in any of them. That will depend upon many factors like driver, tires, course layout and suspension, LSD(and that mod is not on the mod list, but will make one of the bigger improvements to the car).

My region and other smaller regions group Street Modified, Modified and Prepared into one trophy class called Builder and sort out the winners using PAX. Not sure how the OP's home region operates. Driver is the majority of the equation, but a lot of people have the tendency to want to keep working on the car, so it makes sense to have an class that you are targeting in mind, so there are a set of rules you can follow.

 

[AutoX-FIB]

My region and other smaller regions group Street Modified, Modified and Prepared into one trophy class called Builder and sort out the winners using PAX. Not sure how the OP's home region operates. Driver is the majority of the equation, but a lot of people have the tendency to want to keep working on the car, so it makes sense to have an class that you are targeting in mind, so there are a set of rules you can follow.

That's awesome that they have a class like that. Very cool idea.

 

[AutoX-FIB]

So I ended up in a rabbit afterall, but a totally different one all together!

I found an extraordinarily clean 84 GTI that is BONE STOCK and in great shape.

The fact that it is in this good of condition makes me think I'm going to feel guilty to really drive it hard, but FK that, cars are made to be driven not sit in a garage and collect dust.

So with that being said I really appreciate all of the insightful feedback you guys have been giving me and I was hoping you could give me some advice for an H Stock Autocross setup.

The car is 100% stock at this point, so I am truly starting with a blank canvas.

I haven't gone over the car too much yet as I probably won't take delivery yet for another week, but I want to start thinking about a suspension setup for it.

My main question right now is shocks, and what I could adapt into a set of Ground Control Coilover sleeves down the road.

It's hard to say if I will get out much with it autocrossing this season, but if I do I'd like to do some mods that I can "grow into".

So I'd like to think about getting a set of Bilsteins or Konis for it now, and adding a GC coilover sleeve setup later.


If that is a logical plan, then what particular struts and spring rates would I want to combine?


Would the spring perch on a NON insert style strut interfere with the GC sleeves?


I've read that a large FSB and/or removing the RSB is the most popular setup. Any FSB recommendations?


Would changing bump stops effect the spring rate at all? Are there aftermarket bump stops out there for sale that could accomplish that?

I've read that miatas have a major benefit from using this trick to increase the spring rates.

Any other general advice?