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My thing with the Z (and picking cars in general) is whether or not whatever problems it has are easily fixable

Supra is clearly the better performer and has much better stock parts, but trying to make it feel more natural to drive would be tough, and there's no fixing the visibility/ingress/egress/trunk. Main issues with the Z- tires, body control, auto transmission- are either just a matter of replacing parts, or something the aftermarket will probably figure out. Even stuff like the squirrely braking (more front compression/rear rebound and more toe in at the back) and the exposed underbody are not too crazy to address.

This was why I wanted to wait for more real world tuner bois to do some reviews because they will evaluate the cars the way owners will actually use them.
 
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I went off the manual take rate for other recent performance sports cars, like the last M3/M4 and C7 Corvette (both in the low 20% range, starting higher and dropping down with each successive MY). If you needed a source, you could have just asked for one instead of ranting and raving and making a fool of yourself. Unless that was your intention, I can't really tell.

Anyways, the comparo is out, and it's good:

Yeah, I'd call that pretty good, too. It gives the info, tells which one is faster or smoother and where, plus lets you evaluate what's important to you since there are no absolutes instead of telling you which one is "better".
 

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My thing with the Z (and picking cars in general) is whether or not whatever problems it has are easily fixable

Supra is clearly the better performer and has much better stock parts, but trying to make it feel more natural to drive would be tough, and there's no fixing the visibility/ingress/egress/trunk. Main issues with the Z- tires, body control, auto transmission- are either just a matter of replacing parts, or something the aftermarket will probably figure out. Even stuff like the squirrely braking (more front compression/rear rebound and more toe in at the back) and the exposed underbody are not too crazy to address.
Well the automatic is fixed by just getting the better transmission so I'd say that's a non-issue. But yeah, it sounds like it requires the same prep as Miatas do. Increased roll stiffness and increase damping + pads. A good set of one piece coilovers will rectify the body control and brake squat issues for sure.

It's also worth mentioning from a track perspective, you will be able to run much less static camber on the Z's vs. the Supra being that it's strut front. The Supras also have serious bump steer issues as seen below.

 

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So nobody gives a **** about driving a manual in a

3 series
A4
Giulia
Corvette
Pickup truck
Honda Accord
Ferrari
Lamborghini
Aston Martin

Etc.?

Why would automakers across the industry be killing off a transmission that people want to buy? Im guessing here is where you tell me how much more you know about selling cars than the auto industry lmao.
A car can have 9 colors as options, sometimes more.
Then there’s trim levels. Another 9 combinations per trim level
Then there’s individual options. Another 9 combinations for each option. Let’s say 2 options.

9^5 is 59,045 btw.

add that up… it increases by a factor of 9 for each offering. Offering another transmission, all colors, multiple trims, the potential combinations can get into the thousands, and would be complete hell to manage. (Supply chain, dealer inventory, etc)

Most cars do not sell that much, or for that much money to support the extra cost of managing all this. So for cars like the Wrangler, Bronco, etc it’s a minor miracle that you can even get a manual without being boxed into a certain trim level.

and that’s excluding stuff like emissions, brand direction, sales trends, etc.
 

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A car can have 9 colors as options, sometimes more.
Then there’s trim levels. Another 9 combinations per trim level
Then there’s individual options. Another 9 combinations for each option. Let’s say 2 options.

9^5 is 59,045 btw.

add that up… it increases by a factor of 9 for each offering. Offering another transmission, all colors, multiple trims, the potential combinations can get into the thousands, and would be complete hell to manage. (Supply chain, dealer inventory, etc)

Most cars do not sell that much, or for that much money to support the extra cost of managing all this. So for cars like the Wrangler, Bronco, etc it’s a minor miracle that you can even get a manual without being boxed into a certain trim level.

and that’s excluding stuff like emissions, brand direction, sales trends, etc.
I mean this is all true but not really related to the quote I responded to. There are people who care about manuals in everything. They just generally aren't the people buying new cars
 

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So 36:20 in seems to have the wrap-up in the video above where they conclude:

Supra is the best drag racer
Z is the best street car and more enjoyable on the track
GR86 is dramatically cheaper and fun on the track

No real surprises, IMO.
I have to eat a bit of crow concerning the Z.

That assessment makes it sound as if the Z would be a lot of fun as a daily.
 

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I have to eat a bit of crow concerning the Z.

That assessment makes it sound as if the Z would be a lot of fun as a daily.
I dont get why people thought otherwise. FM platform is solid. Nissan fixed like 90% of the issues an OEM should and left that 10% for the Nismo version most likely (as well as the tuner bois)

Anti Nissan hyperbole has become so pervasive that it has turned into consensus. ****s really not that bad anymore.
 

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Look I'm all about modding but the whole "building a base Z up" makes no sense. Wheels + tires + LSD + install are all gonna cost like $6-7K, and you still have the dinky base brakes and no more powertrain warranty. People just have to accept that in 2022 a properly specced ~400-500HP performance car will prob cost $50K. Only exception I can think of is the Camaro LT1 and the ones actually for sale are not far below that $50K threshold (even w/o ADMs)
 

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Look I'm all about modding but the whole "building a base Z up" makes no sense. Wheels + tires + LSD + install are all gonna cost like $6-7K, and you still have the dinky base brakes and no more powertrain warranty. People just have to accept that in 2022 a properly specced ~400-500HP performance car will prob cost $50K. Only exception I can think of is the Camaro LT1 and the ones actually for sale are not far below that $50K threshold (even w/o ADMs)
In my experience, the "base" brakes on cars like these is more about cooling and fade performance than stopping power.

The other advantage of building up a base car is that you get to pick and choose what parts you want for what you want it.
 

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Not to mention that tires, wheels, and lsd done DIY are nowhere near 6-7k and do NOT void ‘powertrain’ warranty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

you wanna take that gamble at the service desk? or regional corporate?

not to mention you’ll likely have a 60mo car note AND have just dumped $thousands into a modified, and now potentially unwarrantied car
 

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Look I'm all about modding but the whole "building a base Z up" makes no sense. Wheels + tires + LSD + install are all gonna cost like $6-7K, and you still have the dinky base brakes and no more powertrain warranty. People just have to accept that in 2022 a properly specced ~400-500HP performance car will prob cost $50K. Only exception I can think of is the Camaro LT1 and the ones actually for sale are not far below that $50K threshold (even w/o ADMs)
Generally aftermarket wheels offer different benefits vs OE. You could go larger, lighter, different design, etc, and you’re not bounded to the stock tires in case you have a tire preference. So it isn’t just about value
 

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In my experience, the "base" brakes on cars like these is more about cooling and fade performance than stopping power.

The other advantage of building up a base car is that you get to pick and choose what parts you want for what you want it.
Cooling and fade performance are pretty important with 400HP. And speaking from experience the Akebonos feel way better than the base brakes too, which is something you will deal with every time you drive.

Generally aftermarket wheels offer different benefits vs OE. You could go larger, lighter, different design, etc, and you’re not bounded to the stock tires in case you have a tire preference. So it isn’t just about value
The Rays wheels the Performance trim comes with are some of the lightest + strongest in the business. An equivalent set in the aftermarket will set you back $4K easily. And the stockers can accommodate 275/285 width tires front and rear........ plenty for this car's weight and power.

Again I'm all for modding and making a car one's own but the repeated suggestion that the Performance trim is a waste of money and that you can a la carte your way to a higher value package just isn't true. $50K is the going price for a new sorted 400HP performance car.
 
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