[CTK]

Gestures broadly at most of the planet

Then why have pushes towards hydrogen gone nowhere ❓

I guess I will need to see more buy in from the rest of the industry. I agree that hydrogen is better than electricity for heavy duty long distance vehicles. But abundance <> feasibility/scalability.

 

[freedomgli]

Where will people get the hydrogen

That’s the chicken or egg scenario. Many fleets will have to develop their own refueling infrastructure at a central depot even if it is a semi-private co-op type arrangement with access controls. In Southern California, where there is a concentration of public hydrogen refueling stations, about 1/3 are offline on any given day, I believe mostly due to issues with the cryogenic cooling systems.

Stations Map | Hydrogen Fuel Cell Partnership

h2fcp.org

Hopefully with more stations comes more experience and reliability. Both high pressure has and cryogenic liquids have unique storage and handling characteristics. So localities will have to carefully evaluate zoning and enforcement with all applicable standards like NFPA 2 and 50A/ 50B. Some places have no local authority having jurisdiction who can perform code enforcement (e.g. much of Pennsylvania outside of the major cities).

 

[bnkrpt311]

95% tow over 10,000 lbs.!?!? Not from my world view. Just a bunch guys and gals with inferiority complexes rolling into Starbucks in something they have no business driving.

I'd be curious where that figure came from as well but I'd also assume they're talking about their new sales, not **** trucks that have been passed along to 5 different landscaping outfits.

 

[Rob]

I'm curious about this new engine. It appears to make a lot of torque. It could be a real winner. I've typically not been satisfied with the larger gas engines (The Triton V10 in my Econoline has been a real disappointment).

Torque and HP numbers haven't been released but it's basically a destroked 7.3 Godzilla mated to a new 10R-100 10 speed auto. What an amazing base engine/trans combo.

 

[freedomgli]

Then why have pushes towards hydrogen gone nowhere

I guess I will need to see more buy in from the rest of the industry. I agree that hydrogen is better than electricity for heavy duty long distance vehicles. But abundance <> feasibility/scalability.

California is practically mandating hydrogen via their zero-emission vehicle program changes since pure BEVs are impractical for large trucks and large fleets alike. So industry is scrambling to make it happen because CA is one of the largest markets in the USA. I’m sure it will be decades before people who live in BFE adopt newer tech, same as it always was.

With hydrogen, the infrastructure costs are initially high but decrease on a per vehicle basis as fleet size increases. With pure BEVs, initial infrastructure costs are low but increase exponentially as fleet size grows more than 5-10 vehicles. Plus, with electric, many fleets end up reliant upon public utilities that can’t meet the customer demand or reliability needs.

 

[Uber Wagon]

Is there a way you can work this topic into a separate thread with a poll?

Will do! 🍺

 

[kryptonik]

As far as I can tell, UT currently has all of 0 hydrogen stations. I actually cannot see how this will work in any capacity unless there is an absolutely massive and rapid infrastructure change, everywhere.

 

[EricTheBald]

95% tow over 10,000 lbs.!?!? Not from my world view. Just a bunch guys and gals with inferiority complexes rolling into Starbucks in something they have no business driving.

You make a valid point, but I believe the subject is WORK trucks. In the case of Ford, that would be the Superduty line, which in this context would be the F250 SRW through the F550 DRW. The F650 gets into the Medium truck class.

Also, we should talk about trailer weight classifications for commercial use.

A 10,000lb GVWR trailer is popular because you can use a vehicle up to 26,000lbs GVWR and tow up to a 10,000lb GVWR trailer, without needing to have a CDL.
At either 26,001 or 10,001 GVWR for truck or trailer, you then need to have a Class A CDL to use them for commercial operations.

The next size up is typically 14,000lbs GVWR, because it was possible to get a useful combination that was still UNDER 26,0001 CGVWR.
For instance, I used to have a SRW 2011 HD3500 Silverado with an 11,400lb GVWR, and I had a gooseneck deckover tilt-bed built for it that I had tagged at 14,500lbs GVWR. We could haul around a 12,000lb piece of equipment with that, and the driver didn't need to have a CDL.

The way that worked was that I had 8,000lb axles installed. With a 12,000lb load, the Gross Weight came to 18,000lbs, but the trailer off-loaded 4,000lbs to the truck, meaning the 16,000lbs of axles were carrying 14,000lbs, or about 0.875% of capacity.

That used to be more important than it is now, because it used to be realistic to buy a 4wd 1-Ton that had a GVWR under 13,000lbs. Not so much anymore.
When I needed to replace the Chevy, I went with an F-550.

Side note: I would not buy a diesel engine work truck unless I was pulling at least a 14,000lb GVWR trailer; and if I was pulling something that size or larger, I wouldn't buy anything BUT a diesel engine. (Talking full-size PS/DM/Cummins)


The point is, when you're talking about a real work truck, EV's just aren't practical. Yet.
They will be, and pretty soon, at least in terms of capabilities. Charging will still be an issue.
Without a Level 3 or Level 4 Charger, the battery capacities necessary become impractical for Level 2 or Level 1 charging.

 

[AZGolf]

California is practically mandating hydrogen via their zero-emission vehicle program changes since pure BEVs are impractical for large trucks and large fleets alike.

The CARB regulation specifically exempts all vehicles GVWR 8501 and up. That's the 250 / 2500 series trucks and up. There is no zero-emission mandate on vehicles in that weight class.

 

[x(why)z]

Although those people exist, the majority of the Super Duty trucks I see are contractor rigs or hot shot operations. But what you see day to day probably depends a lot on where you live.
I believe the quoted 95% figure.

The other thing to note is the quoted number doesn't mean that 95% of people are towing all the time. Instead, it means that their use case includes towing over 10k.

 

[MAC]

It's funny how musk is so insistent that hydogen is dumb, while ignoring the facts that minerals for batteries are finite and existing electrical grids are insufficient already.

Infrastructure for storage is extremely expensive but all stakeholders need to focus on the renewable aspect.

 

[MandatoryOutsidePossum]

As far as I can tell, UT currently has all of 0 hydrogen stations. I actually cannot see how this will work in any capacity unless there is an absolutely massive and rapid infrastructure change, everywhere.

In 2010 when the federal government mandated DEF, we went from 0 DEF pumps to almost all truck stops having DEF pumps within 5 years. And it's not simple infrastructure - the DEF storage tanks, often up to 4,000 gallons, must be stainless steel and the fluid must be kept heated while in storage.

It's the same argument EV proponents use - the infrastructure will get there. And they're right - regardless of your choice of motive power, the infrastructure to support it will come online if we need it.

 

[AZGolf]

In 2010 when the federal government mandated DEF, we went from 0 DEF pumps to almost all truck stops having DEF pumps within 5 years. And it's not simple infrastructure - the DEF storage tanks, often up to 4,000 gallons, must be stainless steel and the fluid must be kept heated while in storage.

It's the same argument EV proponents use - the infrastructure will get there. And they're right - regardless of your choice of motive power, the infrastructure to support it will come online if we need it.

That's the storage and pumps, not the production or distribution problem.

 

[Chris_V]

In 2010 when the federal government mandated DEF, we went from 0 DEF pumps to almost all truck stops having DEF pumps within 5 years. And it's not simple infrastructure - the DEF storage tanks, often up to 4,000 gallons, must be stainless steel and the fluid must be kept heated while in storage.

It's the same argument EV proponents use - the infrastructure will get there. And they're right - regardless of your choice of motive power, the infrastructure to support it will come online if we need it.

DEF is a little different as it's not highly flammable, nor is it a small atom that slips easily through solid structures unless kept at really low temps and/or really high pressures. It's basically a simple liquid with a bit of heating. So yeah, it was easy to extend the infrastructure for that quickly.

 

[freedomgli]

The CARB regulation specifically exempts all vehicles GVWR 8501 and up. That's the 250 / 2500 series trucks and up. There is no zero-emission mandate on vehicles in that weight class.

I meant the CARB Advanced Clean Trucks program, which does require ZEV medium and heavy duty truck sales from 2024 onward.

Advanced Clean Trucks | California Air Resources Board

The Advanced Clean Trucks regulation is a manufacturers ZEV sales requirement and a one-time reporting requirement for large entities and fleets. More information for fleets is available on the Advanced Clean Fleets link on the left side of this page. Promoting the development and use of...

ww2.arb.ca.gov

Advanced Clean Trucks Fact Sheet | California Air Resources Board

What are California’s air quality and climate targets? California faces very challenging mandates to reduce air pollutants to protect public health and to meet state climate change targets including:

ww2.arb.ca.gov

 

[Nealric]

It's funny how musk is so insistent that hydogen is dumb, while ignoring the facts that minerals for batteries are finite and existing electrical grids are insufficient already.

Infrastructure for storage is extremely expensive but all stakeholders need to focus on the renewable aspect.

Hydrogen for transportation is dumb because it doesn't solve any actual problem. How do you actually make commercial quantities of hydrogen? There are basically two ways:

1) You strip the "H" atoms off a big hydrocarbon chain (i.e. from natural gas)
2) You split the "H" atoms out of water (H20) with massive amounts of electricity

If you are going to do 1), just run the truck on natural gas directly. It's far more efficient than stripping out all the carbon first and then duplicating the distribution network. Still much better environmentally than burning diesel. Already common on fleet vehicles. Doing 2) is enormously wasteful compared to just charging a battery with it. If you are going to attack battery materials for being finite, so is natural gas and materials to make storage tanks. Lack of raw materials is not what's going to stop electrification, but prices will be high as mining and production capacity ramps up.

Where hydrogen does make some sense is when you have a bunch of excess electricity you can't do anything with, such as grid scale renewables that are intermittent. In that case, you can use the excess power to make hydrogen. It's easier to make that capacity than grid-scale batteries.

 

[KKatso5]

Hydrogen for transportation is dumb because it doesn't solve any actual problem. How do you actually make commercial quantities of hydrogen? There are basically two ways:

1) You strip the "H" atoms off a big hydrocarbon chain (i.e. from natural gas)
2) You split the "H" atoms out of water (H20) with massive amounts of electricity

If you are going to do 1), just run the truck on natural gas directly. It's far more efficient than stripping out all the carbon first and then duplicating the distribution network. Still much better environmentally than burning diesel. Already common on fleet vehicles. Doing 2) is enormously wasteful compared to just charging a battery with it. If you are going to attack battery materials for being finite, so is natural gas and materials to make storage tanks. Lack of raw materials is not what's going to stop electrification, but prices will be high as mining and production capacity ramps up.

Yep, that's the biggest weakness of hydrogen. How do you get it? Sure its the most abundant element but it is combined with other atoms.... getting pure H2 takes a crap-ton of energy no matter how you look at it. It's major benefit is the quick refueling time compared to batteries. That's really it - because as you said, its more efficient to just charge a battery than make H2

 

[CraigH]

95% tow over 10,000 lbs.!?!? Not from my world view. Just a bunch guys and gals with inferiority complexes rolling into Starbucks in something they have no business driving.

So true.

 

[ghost03]

These aren't class 4 and up vehicles for commercial users though. Class 2b/3 are for regular people who like the security of a higher tow rating whenever they are taking their boat to the lake or their camper out to the woods. If the hydrogen is only at truck stops, it means that every week or two people are going to have to drive out of town to a truck stop to fuel up, then drive back home. That doesn't make sense.

Though I suppose if every truck above 2a (F-150 / Silverado/Ram 1500) is hydrogen only and they only sell hydrogen at truck stops, that would mean a lot fewer brodozers in suburbia. Perhaps this really is something I can get behind after all.

Yeah, the point is to facilitate people that need to haul stuff. If suburban brodozer dads cant conveniently have their choice of daily? Win-win.

Then why have pushes towards hydrogen gone nowhere ❓

Because we haven’t banned gas yet. This will be worse than diesel and gas for these trucks. And it would be worse than an EV in a daily. But if you’re hauling stuff over distance, EV is a non-starter.

 

[MandatoryOutsidePossum]

Because we haven’t banned gas yet. This will be worse than diesel and gas for these trucks. And it would be worse than an EV in a daily. But if you’re hauling stuff over distance, EV is a non-starter.

H is our best bad idea.