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Next-gen Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ on the way with more power
New sports car could have 255bhp+ generated by a Subaru 'Boxer' engine and will be built on Toyota’s TNGA platform



The next-gen sports car will feature some substantial changes from the existing model. While the original was built on a Subaru platform, the firm’s current architectures are not suited to rear-drive cars, so Autocar understands the new model is set to be built on Toyota’s TNGA platform.

While Toyota underpinnings will be used, Subaru is expected to once again take the lead with powertrain development. Autocar understands the car is likely to retain a flat-four ‘Boxer’ engine, with reports in Japan suggesting that the existing 2.0-litre naturally aspirated unit will be switched for the turbocharged 2.4-litre powerplant currently used in the Ascent, Legacy and Outback models.

That engine produces 255bhp in the Ascent, a figure that would represent a significant upgrade on the outgoing model’s output. Forced induction would also provide a substantial torque upgrade over the old car, too, providing a draw for those who weren’t satisfied with the performance of the outgoing GT86 and BRZ. Both brands may wish to retain the drivability and character of a naturally aspirated unit, but this needs to be balanced with what buyers are demanding – and that appears to be the on-tap grunt of a turbocharged unit.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/next-gen-toyota-gt86subaru-brz-way-more-power

 

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'12 Mustang GT | '86 RX-7 | '20 Ninja 400
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It would be very disappointing if they went turbo-only on this. I also don't understand how they can go from a 2.0L N/A engine to a 2.4L turbo engine with what little space there is in that engine bay already.

If they fix the NVH and keep an N/A engine, they can shut up and take my money.

Like those renders too.
 

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The fix is so ****ing simple. Take the 2.4. Remove turbos. Make it rev to 8K and make power all the way up there. Make it a mild hybrid for emissions if necessary. They're gonna ruin it
 

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The fix is so ****ing simple. Take the 2.4. Remove turbos. Make it rev to 8K and make power all the way up there. Make it a mild hybrid for emissions if necessary. They're gonna ruin it
That is the speculation that is going around right now. 2.4L without the turbo. I highly doubt it will rev to 8k, but as long as it makes decent torque, I don't really care.

Wouldn't mind a mild hybrid as well, although we saw what happened to the CRZ. Maybe Toyota (the hybrid king) would make it work. However the powertrain will be Subaru, so I doubt a hybrid version happening.
 

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The fix is so ****ing simple. Take the 2.4. Remove turbos. Make it rev to 8K and make power all the way up there. Make it a mild hybrid for emissions if necessary. They're gonna ruin it
If Honda cannot make a 8k rpm redline affordable car in 2020, I don't think Toyota can...
 

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It would be very disappointing if they went turbo-only on this. I also don't understand how they can go from a 2.0L N/A engine to a 2.4L turbo engine with what little space there is in that engine bay already.

If they fix the NVH and keep an N/A engine, they can shut up and take my money.

Like those renders too.
An extra .4L of displacement is unlikely to substantially increase the footprint of the motor. Heck, you can usually bump up displacement of a 2L to 2.2 or so with nothing but an overbore. In fact, engine package size is often only loosely correlated with displacement. Exterior packaging design (accessories, intake, exhaust, etc.) usually has more to do with fitment than displacement. As far as fitting a turbo- you can fit a turbo (especially a small one) almost anywhere, and there are plenty of turbocharged BRZs running around.

As far as the specific rumor: I'd note that the next gen STI is also likely to get the 2.4FA motor. In STI trim, it will likely get a bigger turbo (compared to the Ascent), some head work for revs, and output somewhere north of 310 (though probably not more than the 345 in the S209). That motor would be a pretty spicy meatball in the BRZ. But I agree there's a decent chance the BRZ will just get an NA version of the motor instead. It would need some work to give it the appropriate feel, but I suppose its doable. A bump of 20-30hp/tq from the added displacement (especially torque) would probably address most of the complaints about the BRZ's lack of power (except for the tuner crowd wanting turbos).
 

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If Honda cannot make a 8k rpm redline affordable car in 2020, I don't think Toyota can...
I would expect more like low 7000s if they are going NA. Your bog standard NA street motor that revs to 6,500 can usually be bumped into the 7,000s with nothing but some stiffer valve springs, cams, and necessary tuning. But 8,000+ starts requiring a lot more thought (and a lot more deviation from non-performance designs), which would make it cost prohibitive.
 

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Has anyone else looked at a dyno graph for these things? 140wtq is about all it'll do on 93. And the torque curve is flat, 175whp too. I don't see it making anywhere near 250bhp without a turbo. The only way it makes something even close to 200whp is with no cats, a tune, and e85. It's going to be turbo or it's going to be crammed in the engine bay and just bigger.
 

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They need to turbo it. Many more people will buy the car if they can keep it affordable. The non tuners will appreciate the extra power and the tuners will be able to make these much more fun. It's a win win.

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I would expect more like low 7000s if they are going NA. Your bog standard NA street motor that revs to 6,500 can usually be bumped into the 7,000s with nothing but some stiffer valve springs, cams, and necessary tuning. But 8,000+ starts requiring a lot more thought (and a lot more deviation from non-performance designs), which would make it cost prohibitive.
Yeah 8,000 rpm redline is not going to happen. I hate to break people the bad news, but they aren't going to develop a purpose-built engine for a low volume sportscar in 2020.

I say just give it the 2.4L FA24DIT from the ascent and call it a day. That's a great engine and has made over 500 whp on a 100% stock, unopened engine which is a testament to it's strength.
 

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An extra .4L of displacement is unlikely to substantially increase the footprint of the motor. Heck, you can usually bump up displacement of a 2L to 2.2 or so with nothing but an overbore. In fact, engine package size is often only loosely correlated with displacement. Exterior packaging design (accessories, intake, exhaust, etc.) usually has more to do with fitment than displacement. As far as fitting a turbo- you can fit a turbo (especially a small one) almost anywhere, and there are plenty of turbocharged BRZs running around.

As far as the specific rumor: I'd note that the next gen STI is also likely to get the 2.4FA motor. In STI trim, it will likely get a bigger turbo (compared to the Ascent), some head work for revs, and output somewhere north of 310 (though probably not more than the 345 in the S209). That motor would be a pretty spicy meatball in the BRZ. But I agree there's a decent chance the BRZ will just get an NA version of the motor instead. It would need some work to give it the appropriate feel, but I suppose its doable. A bump of 20-30hp/tq from the added displacement (especially torque) would probably address most of the complaints about the BRZ's lack of power (except for the tuner crowd wanting turbos).
And a spicy engine like that might cannibalize the Supra. And potentially increase the price a lot compared to the first generation.
They need to turbo it. Many more people will buy the car if they can keep it affordable. The non tuners will appreciate the extra power and the tuners will be able to make these much more fun. It's a win win.

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I don't care if they offer both (especially if it is the same engine both ways). But I do not want the turbo, full stop. Nor do I want to pay extra for it. That's me, however.
 

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Yeah 8,000 rpm redline is not going to happen. I hate to break people the bad news, but they aren't going to develop a propose-built engine for a low volume sportscar in 2020.

I say just give it the 2.4L FA24DIT from the ascent and call it a day. That's a great engine and has made over 500 whp on a 100% stock, unopened engine which is a testament to it's strength.
Speaking as an Ascent owner, i would hope they work it over just a bit before dropping it in a sports car. It's got a great powerband for a family SUV, but I think it would be a bit disappointing in a sports car. Since it's optimized for low and midrange power, it punishes you for really getting on it. Since they are already working on it for the STI (which almost certainly wouldn't get a bog standard 250hp 2.4), I would think they will. However, I also don't see the STI motor going in the BRZ unless they want to go full send and do a BRZ STI.
 

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Speaking as an Ascent owner, i would hope they work it over just a bit before dropping it in a sports car. It's got a great powerband for a family SUV, but I think it would be a bit disappointing in a sports car. Since it's optimized for low and midrange power, it punishes you for really getting on it. Since they are already working on it for the STI (which almost certainly wouldn't get a bog standard 250hp 2.4), I would think they will. However, I also don't see the STI motor going in the BRZ unless they want to go full send and do a BRZ STI.
Devils advocate: The powerband is already insanely un-optimized for a sportcar platform. Note the disgustingly large dip in the middle of the powerband.

 

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Wait, didnt everyone use to complain that that 86/BRZ needed a turbo, but now everyone is just saying it needs larger displacement ?
More displacement = Generally more power/torque depending on how the displacement is achieved.
Turbo = Almost always more power/torque.

Seems that people are being pretty consistent with what they want, it's just the means to achieve it varies. People just need to understand Toyota/Subaru are not going to dump a bunch of money into powertrain development for such a low volume, niche car.
 

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Yeah 8,000 rpm redline is not going to happen. I hate to break people the bad news, but they aren't going to develop a purpose-built engine for a low volume sportscar in 2020.
They don't have to. They could easily pull an ND2 with the FA24. IIRC it has the same 86mm stroke as the current FA20 and a boatload of 8K+ RPM Honda motors. Yes they would have to modify the engine to rev that high but I doubt it would be significantly more expensive than the FA20 if at all. It's very possible and feasible.
 

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More displacement = Generally more power/torque depending on how the displacement is achieved.
Turbo = Almost always more power/torque.

Seems that people are being pretty consistent with what they want, it's just the means to achieve it varies. People just need to understand Toyota/Subaru are not going to dump a bunch of money into powertrain development for such a low volume, niche car.
No I get that, but I thought this car's crux was it always lacked torque, adding a turbo would definitely help that out. Plus the tuning benefits of a turbo vs NA engine. This car is definitely geared towards the tuner type too. I'm just a bit surprised everyone is against it. I think this car would be awesome with a turbo on it
 

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Devils advocate: The powerband is already insanely un-optimized for a sportcar platform. Note the disgustingly large dip in the middle of the powerband.

The torque curve is trash, but at least power scales relatively linearly with RPM and doesn't tank in the last 1,000rpm of the power band. Compare an Ascent dyno:



Torque starts going down after 4,000rpm and power drops starting at 5,000. The midrange focus is fine for an SUV, but you really don't want a sports car with that power band. The midrange focus is actually a big part of the reason why I went STI over WRX. The WRX is initially exciting, but when you really push it feels like it falls flat on its face because all that midrange falls off in the upper part of the tach. The STI encourages you to push it because it keeps building until just before redline.

 
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