[Icantdrive65]

The car always starts right up when it's cold. After driving for about half an hour, it won't crank at all. I put a new starter in, but the problem persists. I bridged the two ignition kill wires at the alarm module, but no change. The battery is new. Ignition switch is not that old, but who knows.
Help
BTW this is my Jetta, not the Passat in my name tag.


Modified by Icantdrive65 at 2:36 AM 5-1-2003

 

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

 

[FlightFollowing]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Air_Cooled_Nut)

ignition switch..... wouldn' hurt to replace it

 

[Icantdrive65]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

I didn't even drive it today. It started in the morning before the sun hit it. At 10:30 the sun was shining on it and it wouldn't start. It sat there all day. Still wouldn't start at 5:00. By that time it was in the shade again. I can't figure out if it's heat-related. I actually pulled the ECU and put it in the refrigerator for 15-20 minutes to see if it was getting hot from the sun on the hood. Didn't work. I am stumped.

Are there two ignition switches? One at the steering column and a lower one? I will try to check it tomorrow with a voltmeter.

 

[Kammer]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

Check the battery cables and ground straps.

 

[JF]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Kammer)

auto or manual ?

 

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (YElloGTi)

Quote, originally posted by YElloGTi »

ignition switch..... wouldn' hurt to replace it

You should change the radiator as well...wouldn't hurt to replace it since you'll be changing other parts that don't need to be and haven't been trouble-shooted to be a probable cause

Come on people, don't just throw out crap simply for the sake of it.

 

[Icantdrive65]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Air_Cooled_Nut)

Yeah. I was thinking it wouldn't hurt to replace the whole car if money were no object. I already blew $140 on a new starter. What else can I throw money at?
Does anybody have any clue about my ignition switch question? Is there a relay under the hood that may be (very) temperature sensitive?
I will check the battery cables tomorrow when I go try to retrieve the car.
It is a manual.


Modified by Icantdrive65 at 5:22 AM 5-2-2003

 

[lukedwag]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

are the dash lights coming on and such ? basicly the car will turn on but the engine wont crank over ? is it auto or manual?

 

[FlightFollowing]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (lukedwag)

no one said driving a vw would be easy.... i'm still guessing ignition switch.. i had the same problem about a year ago...... it was ignition switch

 

[TwoUptons]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

I'm at work, so I don't have my Bentley book to see if G/J starters work the same way, but my wife had a long-running problem like that on her Pontiac. It wasn't the starter, it was the starter solenoid. The solenoid's job is to send the big surge of power that the starter needs to go. If the solenoid fries (and they start failing when hot when they're about to go), then everything in the car will work fine except the starter. If the car's cool, no problems. In her car's case I was able to crawl under the car with wires from a portable 12V power supply, put one to ground, the other to the + connection on the starter, and the starter spun normally. Obviously I would be extra-careful doing anything involving starting the car while underneath it...
We ended up solving the problem once and for all (it went on for months) by installing a heavy-duty starter w/ a heavy-duty solenoid out of a diesel truck (easier to do on a Pontiac 400 than a 2.0l VW). You can also usually get heat shields that keep heat off the solenoid, but as VWs don't have start problems nearly as often as old Pontiacs, simply replacing the solenoid will probably do the trick.
-Eric

 

[Icantdrive65]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (TwoUptons)

The solenoid is mounted piggyback on the starter, so it is as new as the starter.
The dash lights do come on. Everything functions like normal except that it doesn't crank sometimes. The lights don't dim when I turn the key. I am going to go attempt to pick it up this morning while it is still cool (it's stuck at work).

 

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

1. VR6 or 2.0L? We need to know if it's coil fired or coil pack fired.
2. Are you positive it's heat related? I know it's not necessarily the easiest thing to be sure about but if you're seeing consistant results then that's good to know.
Cheap-n-easy stuff:
3. Make sure the battery clamps & terminals are clean. Take off the clamps and wire brush the terminals and clamp mounting surfaces.
4. Next, make sure your vacuum lines are not cracked/split and have tight fittings. Things expand when heated and that insignificant crack can then become the problem.
I have more ideas but I gotta go so I'll check back later. As to the ignition switch, when mine failed, depending how I wiggled the key I could control if I started or not the car. If the car didn't start, all of the gauge lights would go blank; normally your idiot lights will stay ON when starting the car. But this is just what I experienced. Replacing the ignition switch solved my problem (around $250). If at all possible, instead of haphazardly buying new parts you or your mechanic should test with known good parts. If it doesn't make a difference then the tested part isn't the problem and you can put yours back and save $$$.

 

[Icantdrive65]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Air_Cooled_Nut)

1. It's a 2.0
2. It consistently starts in the morning at about 50 degrees. It started cold tonight at about 55 degrees. When it sits with the sun shining on it, it won't start, even if it has been sitting for hours. I did't even drive it yesterday, but it wouldn't start once the sun hit it.
The battery and oil lights stay on when it won't start.
Weird thing: sometimes the brake light comes on very dim when I turn the ignition to start it. It goes off when I let go.

 

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

Quote, originally posted by Icantdrive65 »

The solenoid is mounted piggyback on the starter, so it is as new as the starter. The dash lights do come on. Everything functions like normal except that it doesn't crank sometimes. The lights don't dim when I turn the key. I am going to go attempt to pick it up this morning while it is still cool (it's stuck at work).

The bold section seems to be key (heheh). The lights don't dim and the starter doesn't crank. So that means power is not reaching the starter -- there's an open circuit. This means from the ignition switch to the starter, and all wiring and relays that are involved in the starting circuit, are involved.
Let the car sit over night. In the early morning (before the sun heats things up) see if the car will start. It should, right? Let's say it does. Turn the car off; don't let things warm up, we just want to make sure the car starts. Okay, now get a heat gun or, better yet, a hair drier and heat up the ignition switch. Leave the car door open but get the switch toasty (but don't melt anything!!!!). When it's hot, try starting the car. If it doesn't start, I'd bet it needs replacing. If it does start, we move on...
Now aim your hair drier at the fuse/relay panel. Concentrate air flow at the #12 relay (fuel pump relay) but heat up the row of relays as well. You can close the car door if you want so you are heating up the cabin as well. They should be warm to the touch and not super hot, we just wanna take the chill of 'em so room temperature or so is good. Now try to start the car. If it doesn't start, you may need a new fuel pump relay or there is some damage in the fuse/relay panel...that could be tricky to track down and fix. If it does start, hmmm...maybe the problem then lies within the engine compartment.
Engine still starting? Remember, don't let it get to operating temp, we just wanna see if it successfully starts. Yes? Okay, take the hair drier to the starter and get that starter hot! Don't melt the wiring or get it glowing red, just pretty damn uncomfortable for a finger to rest on. Try starting the car again! If it doesn't start, you got a bump starter/solenoid (it can happen). If it does start, crap, I don't wanna know cuz I'm running out of ideas

Report back on your findings and any other things you try. And remember, ONE THING AT A TIME! If you change two or more things you won't know which one actually was the fix!

 

[Icantdrive65]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Air_Cooled_Nut)

I haven't gotten around to dragging an ext. cord and hair dryer out to the car yet, but I have learned a couple of things. One is that the New Dimensions show was worth going to even if I should have been working on my car.
Yesterday I had my wife turn the key while I checked voltage to the starter. I eliminated the possibility of a bad starter. I got voltage as often as the car would be turning over. I found that it the starter would turn at the first attempt, but not immediately again. If I let it sit for a minute or two it would crank again. Interesting discovery, but not too enlightening to me.
Today my friend and I messed with it after the ND show. He had the idea of checking the relays. The Haynes manual that I have only has an imaginary chart of the relays that doesn't even resemble the panel on my car, so we decided to use the seat-of-the-pants method. First we identified the relays we could, then we started removing the remaining relays one by one to see which one would keep the car from cranking. (I had fairly consistent results of one successful start and then waiting for a minute before starting again - it was cool today)
I went to remove a mystery relay #53, but it was stuck in tight, so I used a small screwdriver to pry on it. I tried not to touch the prongs, but I accidentally bridged two of them which

cranked the starter. It worked over and over and over. So I swapped that relay for the horn relay which just happens to be identical. The car would not start with the key.

Then I realized that the starter had cranked without depressing the clutch pedal. 97's have a clutch pedal switch. The relay clicks every time I turn the key, so I don't think the ignition switch is the problem. The relay is fine. It seems that the fault is somewhere between the relay and the starter. The ignition disable at the alarm module is permanently bridged (don't nobody come steal it now). As far as I know, the only thing left in that path is the clutch switch. Am I right? Now that I think of it, I have had some trouble with the clutch switch being a little slow to respond at times.
If nothing else, I can reliably start the car with a screwdriver http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

 

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

Good work! Sure would be great if other people exhibited such dilligence and intelligence.
Well, my '95 can be started w/o depressing the clutch because...it didn't come with one

sooooo, what about finding your switch and bypassing it

 

[VeeDub97]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

I would say push the damm thing down the road with the ignition on and pop the cluch in second (this is ofcourse if it's a standard) if not that def wont' work....
If she starts up it is likly that the problem is electrical, like every one said solonoid, starter, ignition, always re-check your bat too if you have recently replaced it and clean all your ground up and everything... Good Luck!
Oh yeah and invest in a Bentley... They are the best around... I just bought mine from Amazon for only $42.00. These are the official service manuals for the dealers and they have tons of trouble shooting guides!



Modified by VeeDub97 at 10:25 PM 5-4-2003

 

[Icantdrive65]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (VeeDub97)

OK I jumped the clutch switch on Monday. That worked for about 3 times. Just enough to get me thinking I had finally solved the problem. Then :click: ... nothing.

So anybody want a Jetta?
I tried jiggling the key while I turned it and got it to start a couple more times. So looks like it IS the stinkin ignition switch. Here's one for YelloGTI

Actually I think the lock cylinder is worn just enough to keep the contacts from touching in less than ideal circumstances. It still starts first thing in the morning.

Did I mention that the car doesn't like to idle anymore? That's a great combination, huh? And of course traffic was nasty yesterday. Stop and go...don't let it die! So I went to Kragen and bought a $5.00 push button starter switch and did the worst quickie installation in the world. At least I don't have to pull the fuse/relay panel down and jump the relay with a screwdriver every time it dies!
Next: a lock cylinder that will match the doors and a new ignition switch.

 

[FatSean]

Re: No start after driving for a while - won't even turn over (Icantdrive65)

Good luck man, electrical issues are the worst to work out. You made the right choice by slogging it out yourself, a shop would only charge you hourly rate while they threw parts at it.