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16,726 Posts
Never mind
[Modified by VarLordahl, 7:17 PM 4-9-2002]
[Modified by VarLordahl, 7:17 PM 4-9-2002]
PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT!
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (Shirt Ninja)
I'm 19. How old are you?
quote:[HR][/HR]You are how old exactly?
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[HR][/HR]
Why does that matter?
I'm 19. How old are you?
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4,586 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
quote:[HR][/HR]go here and read:
http://www.petitiononline.com/vljr/petition.html[HR][/HR]
totally lame dude.... you're getting tooled on toohttp://www.petitiononline.com/vljr/petition.html[HR][/HR]
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (torque_steer)
quote:[HR][/HR]go here and read:
http://www.petitiononline.com/vljr/petition.html
totally lame dude.... you're getting tooled on too[HR][/HR]
Why lame?http://www.petitiononline.com/vljr/petition.html
totally lame dude.... you're getting tooled on too[HR][/HR]
Joined
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
OK, never mind. I can't beleive you guys come to suggestion box forum, and when I'm actually trying to get things changed intelligently, without whining, and professionally, i get called immature. So keep up all your bitching guys. I think you all just enjoy sitting here complaining.
OK, never mind. I can't beleive you guys come to suggestion box forum, and when I'm actually trying to get things changed intelligently, without whining, and professionally, i get called immature. So keep up all your bitching guys. I think you all just enjoy sitting here complaining.
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
Oh, and cadiburns, where are you? A nice supporting post would be nice here
Oh, and cadiburns, where are you? A nice supporting post would be nice here
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
One last thing, then I'm done.
I think many of you that think this is stupid don't see the crap that goes on in the MKIV forum in terms of locking things constantly and grudges held by moderators. I notice in the MKI,MKII,MKIII forums they actually allow discussions, etc... This is NOT allowed in the MKIV forum. Go check it out all you guys with older dubs that think I'm crazy.
One last thing, then I'm done.
I think many of you that think this is stupid don't see the crap that goes on in the MKIV forum in terms of locking things constantly and grudges held by moderators. I notice in the MKI,MKII,MKIII forums they actually allow discussions, etc... This is NOT allowed in the MKIV forum. Go check it out all you guys with older dubs that think I'm crazy.
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
Creating a petition which just makes you seem like a moron saying the moderators hold grudges, and that you don't like what they are locking, and that the forum isn't being run how YOU want it to be run. Also, you have numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes in your petition, and I am starting to wonder if you can even write a coherent sentence!
You are less than 1% of all registered users that are complaining. Have you ever stopped and thought to yourself "Maybe I am the only one, and part of the problem might be me?" Moderators don't hold grudges, but if you constantly break the rules cause problems, you're going to be remembered.
Over the past month, half of your threads have been off topic, and you have continually had issues with a moderator or two. Here's how it's going to be, if you have SUCH a problem with VWvortex... why are you here? We are doing a great service to the members so that the forum is easy and delightful to navigate, with on topic posts and keeping crap out of the forums.
I mean step back and realize that even members of vortex, who might not agree with the changes are flamming you. Read some of your signatures of your omnipotent "petition".
![]()
Please..... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
- Anthony
quote:[HR][/HR]OK, never mind. I can't beleive you guys come to suggestion box forum, and when I'm actually trying to get things changed intelligently, without whining, and professionally, i get called immature. So keep up all your bitching guys. I think you all just enjoy sitting here complaining.[HR][/HR]
Oh come on!!! "intelligently" "professionally" ??? You put up a petition when you should have just gone into the proper thread and voiced your opinion! That's why we created it. A well written, throughly thought out post that makes VALID points is honestly appreciated and taken into consideration by the staff of VWvortex. Creating a petition which just makes you seem like a moron saying the moderators hold grudges, and that you don't like what they are locking, and that the forum isn't being run how YOU want it to be run. Also, you have numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes in your petition, and I am starting to wonder if you can even write a coherent sentence!
You are less than 1% of all registered users that are complaining. Have you ever stopped and thought to yourself "Maybe I am the only one, and part of the problem might be me?" Moderators don't hold grudges, but if you constantly break the rules cause problems, you're going to be remembered.
Over the past month, half of your threads have been off topic, and you have continually had issues with a moderator or two. Here's how it's going to be, if you have SUCH a problem with VWvortex... why are you here? We are doing a great service to the members so that the forum is easy and delightful to navigate, with on topic posts and keeping crap out of the forums.
I mean step back and realize that even members of vortex, who might not agree with the changes are flamming you. Read some of your signatures of your omnipotent "petition".
Please..... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
- Anthony
Joined
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (adg44)
And I do feel that I was being treated unfairly -- by him specifically. I have tried posting things in here --- many very very good ideas to improve the forum. And I've had moderators tell me that even though they are good ideas, there really is no way to make changes in Vortex. So, you might say, why not just leave? Well, I enjoy the people here, I enjoy the discussion, and I enjoy VWs. I came to the correct forum to post this, and I did it in a mature way. WOuld you rather have me say "HA HA MODERATORS SUCK." You'd probably lock the damn thing if I did. But look at all the posts above calling me a baby. If I was a baby, I would be whining. I;m clearly NOT whining, I'm just trying to change this place for the better. Even if people don't have issues with the current state of Vortex, is there harm in attempting to make it better?
I think you're just mad because I mentioned one of thr posts that YOU locked for no reason. Furthermore, the only off-topic post that you locked from me was the one about Nudespeed --- nevermind that Nudespeed has MKIV Jettas and Golfs on it. That's not to say that it shouldn't have been locked, but for christ sake, don't act like I post off topic crap all the time. YOU locked an on-topic post. High-speed stability in our cars is a VERY pertinant issue. So what if I said that I've gone 115 on a public highway, BOO HOO. There is a guy in there right now who posted that he took corners at 60 MPH up a canyon. People always talk about removing their catalytic converters. Now I'm no enivronmentalist, but I'm sure to many people out there the idea of unfiltered exhaust air constantly being pumped into the atmosphere is far greater of an illegal activity than doing 115MPH on a wide-open dead straight portion of farm highway in broad daylight in a car with tires and suspension than can handle it. Yet it got locked. How else am I supposed to take that other than bias? I post about all my new mods that I bought, and people make immature personal attacks like "woa, his daddy must have raised his allowance hee hee hee." The thread doesn't get locked. Instead, I get yelled at for having a joking title to the thread. Yet, you are the king of announcing your new mods to the world. And you joke around more in your sig and "todler-ator" than I ever do in my posts. I know you read my post about my new mods, and I know you saw all the personall attacks, but of course, no lock. Then when I try to retaliate, WITHOUT swearing or use of much personal attacking so people don't get the wrong idea about me, BAMN, I get an IM from a moderator about it. ????
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I figured If I posted what I posted in the petition on here it would just get immediately locked, so I did what I did. Now watch, even though this is completely on topic, with NO personal attacks, or anything, one of you will lock this thread. Go for it. Got forbid we have discussions on here, or anything pertinant. Maybe if I posted "I think we should get back Avatars" or something sterile and easily ignorable you'd be happy. This is just my opinion, of course. I would like a response, though!
Also, for those that are arguing "VarLordahl never paid a penny to Vortex." Well, I own 2 T-shirts and 4 stickers. While not much, I beleive my contribution is enough to warrant fair treatment and maybe even people listening to what I have to say.
[Modified by VarLordahl, 11:40 PM 4-9-2002]
quote:[HR][/HR]OK, never mind. I can't beleive you guys come to suggestion box forum, and when I'm actually trying to get things changed intelligently, without whining, and professionally, i get called immature. So keep up all your bitching guys. I think you all just enjoy sitting here complaining.
Oh come on!!! "intelligently" "professionally" ??? You put up a petition when you should have just gone into the proper thread and voiced your opinion! That's why we created it. A well written, throughly thought out post that makes VALID points is honestly appreciated and taken into consideration by the staff of VWvortex.
Creating a petition which just makes you seem like a moron saying the moderators hold grudges, and that you don't like what they are locking, and that the forum isn't being run how YOU want it to be run. Also, you have numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes in your petition, and I am starting to wonder if you can even write a coherent sentence!
You are less than 1% of all registered users that are complaining. Have you ever stopped and thought to yourself "Maybe I am the only one, and part of the problem might be me?" Moderators don't hold grudges, but if you constantly break the rules cause problems, you're going to be remembered.
Over the past month, half of your threads have been off topic, and you have continually had issues with a moderator or two. Here's how it's going to be, if you have SUCH a problem with VWvortex... why are you here? We are doing a great service to the members so that the forum is easy and delightful to navigate, with on topic posts and keeping crap out of the forums.
I mean step back and realize that even members of vortex, who might not agree with the changes are flamming you. Read some of your signatures of your omnipotent "petition".
![]()
Please..... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
- Anthony[HR][/HR]
I've noticed that many also have issues with the same person. Oh come on!!! "intelligently" "professionally" ??? You put up a petition when you should have just gone into the proper thread and voiced your opinion! That's why we created it. A well written, throughly thought out post that makes VALID points is honestly appreciated and taken into consideration by the staff of VWvortex.
Creating a petition which just makes you seem like a moron saying the moderators hold grudges, and that you don't like what they are locking, and that the forum isn't being run how YOU want it to be run. Also, you have numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes in your petition, and I am starting to wonder if you can even write a coherent sentence!
You are less than 1% of all registered users that are complaining. Have you ever stopped and thought to yourself "Maybe I am the only one, and part of the problem might be me?" Moderators don't hold grudges, but if you constantly break the rules cause problems, you're going to be remembered.
Over the past month, half of your threads have been off topic, and you have continually had issues with a moderator or two. Here's how it's going to be, if you have SUCH a problem with VWvortex... why are you here? We are doing a great service to the members so that the forum is easy and delightful to navigate, with on topic posts and keeping crap out of the forums.
I mean step back and realize that even members of vortex, who might not agree with the changes are flamming you. Read some of your signatures of your omnipotent "petition".
Please..... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
- Anthony[HR][/HR]
And I do feel that I was being treated unfairly -- by him specifically. I have tried posting things in here --- many very very good ideas to improve the forum. And I've had moderators tell me that even though they are good ideas, there really is no way to make changes in Vortex. So, you might say, why not just leave? Well, I enjoy the people here, I enjoy the discussion, and I enjoy VWs. I came to the correct forum to post this, and I did it in a mature way. WOuld you rather have me say "HA HA MODERATORS SUCK." You'd probably lock the damn thing if I did. But look at all the posts above calling me a baby. If I was a baby, I would be whining. I;m clearly NOT whining, I'm just trying to change this place for the better. Even if people don't have issues with the current state of Vortex, is there harm in attempting to make it better?
I think you're just mad because I mentioned one of thr posts that YOU locked for no reason. Furthermore, the only off-topic post that you locked from me was the one about Nudespeed --- nevermind that Nudespeed has MKIV Jettas and Golfs on it. That's not to say that it shouldn't have been locked, but for christ sake, don't act like I post off topic crap all the time. YOU locked an on-topic post. High-speed stability in our cars is a VERY pertinant issue. So what if I said that I've gone 115 on a public highway, BOO HOO. There is a guy in there right now who posted that he took corners at 60 MPH up a canyon. People always talk about removing their catalytic converters. Now I'm no enivronmentalist, but I'm sure to many people out there the idea of unfiltered exhaust air constantly being pumped into the atmosphere is far greater of an illegal activity than doing 115MPH on a wide-open dead straight portion of farm highway in broad daylight in a car with tires and suspension than can handle it. Yet it got locked. How else am I supposed to take that other than bias? I post about all my new mods that I bought, and people make immature personal attacks like "woa, his daddy must have raised his allowance hee hee hee." The thread doesn't get locked. Instead, I get yelled at for having a joking title to the thread. Yet, you are the king of announcing your new mods to the world. And you joke around more in your sig and "todler-ator" than I ever do in my posts. I know you read my post about my new mods, and I know you saw all the personall attacks, but of course, no lock. Then when I try to retaliate, WITHOUT swearing or use of much personal attacking so people don't get the wrong idea about me, BAMN, I get an IM from a moderator about it. ????
I figured If I posted what I posted in the petition on here it would just get immediately locked, so I did what I did. Now watch, even though this is completely on topic, with NO personal attacks, or anything, one of you will lock this thread. Go for it. Got forbid we have discussions on here, or anything pertinant. Maybe if I posted "I think we should get back Avatars" or something sterile and easily ignorable you'd be happy. This is just my opinion, of course. I would like a response, though!
Also, for those that are arguing "VarLordahl never paid a penny to Vortex." Well, I own 2 T-shirts and 4 stickers. While not much, I beleive my contribution is enough to warrant fair treatment and maybe even people listening to what I have to say.
[Modified by VarLordahl, 11:40 PM 4-9-2002]
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (adg44)
By the way, I realize that you guys do a great service for all of us. I fully understand that. But I think some of you in particular are rediculous. I realize it's a difficult job and not fun, and very generous, etc... But using that to justify your actions is like a cop who abuses his power saying "hey, I'm doing the public a favor by being a cop." We all know this senario all too well as auto enthusiasts...
By the way, I realize that you guys do a great service for all of us. I fully understand that. But I think some of you in particular are rediculous. I realize it's a difficult job and not fun, and very generous, etc... But using that to justify your actions is like a cop who abuses his power saying "hey, I'm doing the public a favor by being a cop." We all know this senario all too well as auto enthusiasts...
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
I agree. I'm sorry if I came off a bit harsh, but some of the stuff is really getting to me.
If you have a problem with EPilot (which it seems like you do), the mature thing to do would be to take your issue up with an admin instead of spamming his name on the forums as a "bad" moderator.
I didn't see your new thread, I don't see every thread on vortex, it is impossible.
If you have a problem, click the "Report this post to a moderator" button - it comes to me and I'll take care of it.
I do post my mods to people, I also posted the shifter rod issue which helped a lot of people out - that is what the forum is for. The user title and signature isn't me, I don't put those there. Every week something is different.... I find it quite hilarious. The admins like to pick on me cause I'm.... young.
So anyways.... I just think that putting this petition on the forum and in your signature isn't going to help your situation or how the other users think about you.
Just something to think about.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I agree. I'm sorry if I came off a bit harsh, but some of the stuff is really getting to me.
If you have a problem with EPilot (which it seems like you do), the mature thing to do would be to take your issue up with an admin instead of spamming his name on the forums as a "bad" moderator.
I didn't see your new thread, I don't see every thread on vortex, it is impossible.
If you have a problem, click the "Report this post to a moderator" button - it comes to me and I'll take care of it.
I do post my mods to people, I also posted the shifter rod issue which helped a lot of people out - that is what the forum is for. The user title and signature isn't me, I don't put those there. Every week something is different.... I find it quite hilarious. The admins like to pick on me cause I'm.... young.
So anyways.... I just think that putting this petition on the forum and in your signature isn't going to help your situation or how the other users think about you.
Just something to think about.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
haha.....i'm right here. i'm sick of arguing with moderators for one day. we know who is going to win in the end. of course it will be the leaders of this facist regime (the moderators) in the end. they do whatever they want and it doesn't matter. there have even been posts by moderators that are lockable, but they can't be touched. this board was much much more enjoyable two years when it was much much more liberal here. threads were mostly locked due to personal attacks towards other members, and that's a fine way of doing it. this board reminds me of high school too much. you have different cliques. there are certainly the popular "kids", cause when they post, all their lil butt buddies come in and reply, "the car looks PHAT dude. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
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http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ". what a joke. not to mention the owners of the older model VWs continuously ripping on the owners of the newer models saying, "that's not a GTI" or "you don't drive a real dub". i guess if all i could have was an older volkswagen, i would say the same thing too.
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the more i think about though, the less i feel i want to be a part of this community.
If I write a farewell address in the MKIV forum.....would it be locked. I can almost certainly say "yes" because I know that the moderators would think it's lame and do it to it. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
haha.....i'm right here. i'm sick of arguing with moderators for one day. we know who is going to win in the end. of course it will be the leaders of this facist regime (the moderators) in the end. they do whatever they want and it doesn't matter. there have even been posts by moderators that are lockable, but they can't be touched. this board was much much more enjoyable two years when it was much much more liberal here. threads were mostly locked due to personal attacks towards other members, and that's a fine way of doing it. this board reminds me of high school too much. you have different cliques. there are certainly the popular "kids", cause when they post, all their lil butt buddies come in and reply, "the car looks PHAT dude. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
If I write a farewell address in the MKIV forum.....would it be locked. I can almost certainly say "yes" because I know that the moderators would think it's lame and do it to it. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
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13,050 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
To briefly address your points...
1. We don't require you to buy anything from us or to buy a T-shirt to view or use the site. If you choose to support us by purchasing a T-shirt or sticker, then great and thanks and thanks for the support. However, that doesn't buy you ownership into this site or "voting rights". Contrary to recent opinions, we DO listen to what people want, how we can improve or change things (see below) and more... BUT, going to 50,000 users and asking how we should handle the group buy issues (for example) would just result in a LOT of differing opinions and endless debate that gets us no where. Since we've been doing this for five years now and know a thing or two about what is best for our site overall. In the case of the Group Buy policy we worked on it internally and then worked on it with the 40+ moderators we have (which do partake in group buys themselves). From there it was presented and is open for some discussion with our readers.
We have a suggestion box and while we don't respond to every idea personally, we do read through them and we do value the ideas and opinions of our readers. Does that mean we'll keep everyone happy? No, but we sure try.
2. We are actually working on new moderator guidelines to try and help make moderator more consistent and fairer overall for both readers and moderators. Moderators volunteer their time to babysit the forums and everyone has different personalities, so you're going to get differing levels of tolerance and interpretation. Part of this is our fault for not providing our moderators with enough guidance in the first place. We know this is a problem and we've been working on some new ideas to help correct it.
VarLordahl, my email is always visable and my IM is always on... you know where to reach me. Hell, we live in the same city. You can always email or IM me with comments, problems, suggestions, gripes or whatever. I'm always approachable and willing to talk or listen to what people say. We may not agree on everything, but we'll always consider it.
-jamie
To briefly address your points...
1. We don't require you to buy anything from us or to buy a T-shirt to view or use the site. If you choose to support us by purchasing a T-shirt or sticker, then great and thanks and thanks for the support. However, that doesn't buy you ownership into this site or "voting rights". Contrary to recent opinions, we DO listen to what people want, how we can improve or change things (see below) and more... BUT, going to 50,000 users and asking how we should handle the group buy issues (for example) would just result in a LOT of differing opinions and endless debate that gets us no where. Since we've been doing this for five years now and know a thing or two about what is best for our site overall. In the case of the Group Buy policy we worked on it internally and then worked on it with the 40+ moderators we have (which do partake in group buys themselves). From there it was presented and is open for some discussion with our readers.
We have a suggestion box and while we don't respond to every idea personally, we do read through them and we do value the ideas and opinions of our readers. Does that mean we'll keep everyone happy? No, but we sure try.
2. We are actually working on new moderator guidelines to try and help make moderator more consistent and fairer overall for both readers and moderators. Moderators volunteer their time to babysit the forums and everyone has different personalities, so you're going to get differing levels of tolerance and interpretation. Part of this is our fault for not providing our moderators with enough guidance in the first place. We know this is a problem and we've been working on some new ideas to help correct it.
quote:[HR][/HR]3. Suggestions from users should actually be used. It is us, the users that determine how smoothly this forum runs. When we suggest things such as "make a Group Buy forum" or "make a kill-story forum" it is in the best interest of everyone to do so, because, as aforementioned, WE determine how smoothly this forum runs. [HR][/HR]
3. We DO actually use people's suggestions when they make sense and fit in with our vision of how the site should be run. If we left it up to the users to determine how smoothly the site would be run, we'd have street racing forums, kill story forums, off-topic forums, anything goes forums, etc., etc. Street Racing and Kill Stories just promote activities where users could potentially get hurt and quite frankly I'm not going to support that. We've already been down the off-topic forum route twice and too many people ruin it for everyone else. While we want to try and do everything our readers would like, it doesn't always work or make sense.VarLordahl, my email is always visable and my IM is always on... you know where to reach me. Hell, we live in the same city. You can always email or IM me with comments, problems, suggestions, gripes or whatever. I'm always approachable and willing to talk or listen to what people say. We may not agree on everything, but we'll always consider it.
-jamie
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16,726 Posts
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (vwvortex1)
Anthony---thanks for the response. I don't mean to dwell on the locked highway speeding post, but it was the easiest one to make a point out of. Sorry for the raucus --- while I won't say that the petition was a "stupid idea," I took it off because most of you thought it was and therefore it's useless.
Once again, I don't mean to rip on anyone or flame, etc... I was just stating my opinion. THis opinion that many have "problems" with you originates generally from our discussions, as well as the myriad of posts I have seen that something to the degree of "I can't state my opinion or I'll get an IM from a specific moderator." I know that I've tried to get along with you, but I gotta say that you are WAY too harsh.
Vwvortex1 -- Thanks. Nice response. I agree with the no Kill Stories thread, etc.... I just think the forums could be better organized. Anyway, i didn't want anyone to think I'm nuts or that I have no life -- I think people thought that I was more upset by this than I actually am. I'm sorry for any disturbance, things are just annoying some times, and I get stressed because I am in school. When I do my homework, I take breaks on Vortex -- that's why my moods are so different every time I post. But I'll change my actions as well, I realize fully that some of my past posts and actions are wrong. I hope everyone is OK with each other now, because I look forward to seeing many of you this summer at shows, etc...
Thanks!
-Var
[Modified by VarLordahl, 11:41 PM 4-9-2002]
Anthony---thanks for the response. I don't mean to dwell on the locked highway speeding post, but it was the easiest one to make a point out of. Sorry for the raucus --- while I won't say that the petition was a "stupid idea," I took it off because most of you thought it was and therefore it's useless.
Once again, I don't mean to rip on anyone or flame, etc... I was just stating my opinion. THis opinion that many have "problems" with you originates generally from our discussions, as well as the myriad of posts I have seen that something to the degree of "I can't state my opinion or I'll get an IM from a specific moderator." I know that I've tried to get along with you, but I gotta say that you are WAY too harsh.
Vwvortex1 -- Thanks. Nice response. I agree with the no Kill Stories thread, etc.... I just think the forums could be better organized. Anyway, i didn't want anyone to think I'm nuts or that I have no life -- I think people thought that I was more upset by this than I actually am. I'm sorry for any disturbance, things are just annoying some times, and I get stressed because I am in school. When I do my homework, I take breaks on Vortex -- that's why my moods are so different every time I post. But I'll change my actions as well, I realize fully that some of my past posts and actions are wrong. I hope everyone is OK with each other now, because I look forward to seeing many of you this summer at shows, etc...
Thanks!
-Var
[Modified by VarLordahl, 11:41 PM 4-9-2002]
Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (VarLordahl)
quote:[HR][/HR]OK, never mind. I can't beleive you guys come to suggestion box forum, and when I'm actually trying to get things changed intelligently, without whining, and professionally, i get called immature. So keep up all your bitching guys. I think you all just enjoy sitting here complaining.[HR][/HR]
Ummmm OK, and what is the problem in that?
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Re: PETITION to improve VWvortex! SIGN IT! (2035cc16v)
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quote:[HR][/HR]
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riiight
at what point did you mistakenly beleive that this was a democracy?[HR][/HR]
riiight
at what point did you mistakenly beleive that this was a democracy?[HR][/HR]
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