[murphybaileysam]

Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test

In Illinois vehicles must pass an Emission test or you cannot get your new vehicle plates.
I went to the test center today and after the employees there asked all kinds of questions about the car I drove into the test lane and was told it failed the emissions test. A bit embarrassing after explaining what a great car it was and how it was loaded with all the features!
They hooked up to the diagnostic plug under the drivers side dash and the following reasons for failure were shown:

1. Code P0741 Torque converter clutch circuit performance or stuck off.
2. P0187 Manufacturer specific code
3. P1083 Manufacturer specific code
The booklet they gave me to find a repair shop listed Autobarn in Evanston so I will be going there soon as I also am in need of the 40,000 mile service.
My CEL light has been on for some time as I alluded to in prior posts so that may have something to do with the test result. When I spoke to a service man at Autobarn by phone a few months ago he told me as long as it wasn't flashing it was OK to drive and they would check it at my next service.
Has anyone had a problem with the emission testing or does any of our VW people know what the "manufacturer specific code" refers to?

 

[Deserion]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (murphybaileysam)

17125/P0741/001857 - Torque Converter Clutch: Stuck OFF / No Power being transferred
Possible Causes
* Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) Level not OK
o Transmission Sealing faulty
* Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) dirty
* Torque Converter faulty or incorrect Torque Converter installed
* Solenoid Valve 7 (N94)/Pressure Regulating Valve 4 (N218) faulty
* Torque Converter Pressure Valve faulty
* Valve for Torque Converter Clutch faulty
* Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch faulty/worn our
Possible Solutions
* Check Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) Level
o Check Transmission Sealing
* Check Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)
* Check Torque Converter
* Check Solenoid Valve 7 (N94)/Pressure Regulating Valve 4 (N218)
* Check Torque Converter Pressure Valve
* Check Valve for Torque Converter Clutch
* Check Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch
Special Notes
* When found in VW Passat (3B): 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (01V), check Transmission Sealing (see TPL 2009761).
16571/P0187 - Fuel Temperature Sensor B (G248): Signal Too Low
Possible Causes
* Open or short in harness
* Improper harness connection
* Low ambient temperature operation
* G248 damaged
* Controle Module faulty
16567/P0183 - Fuel Temperature Sensor A (G81): Circuit High Input
Possible Causes
* Open or short in harness
* Improper harness connection
* Low ambient temperature operation
* G81 damaged
* Controle Module faulty
I know you wrote P1083 but I figured it was a typo...

(wiki.ross-tech.com)

 

[chrisj428]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (murphybaileysam)

This is the dreaded "torque converter" fault code. At present, I believe the solution is to actually replace the torque converter itself.
Or, they could clear codes, reset readiness and you high-tail it over to the EPA station before the light comes back on -- the torque converter fault typically presented itself on start-up at very low temperatures.
However, you do want it addressed with a permanent solution before your warranty expires.

 

[PanEuropean]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (chrisj428)

Don't replace the torque converter just to get rid of that code. I did that, and it was a PITA par excellance.
I actually visited ZF Transmission in Germany to get advice about how to go about replacing the torque converter. They provided great advice, but it took the technician at my VW dealer 9 days to drop the engine and transmission and replace the torque converter.
The short story about that torque converter fault in W12s is this: The torque converter slips a tiny bit when it is very cold out (below freezing) and the cold-soaked car is first started. The slipping disappears within seconds, normally before the driver even takes the car out of park - this I have proven by clearing the light 5 or 10 seconds after startup, and noting that it does not come back on again.
Because of US emission control laws, slippage in the torque converter results in increased fuel burn, therefore, by law the CEL (MIL) must be turned on when this slippage is detected. BUT... if the slippage only occurs for the first few seconds after start, when the car is in park, how the heck can that increase fuel consumption??? You are not trying to go anywhere when the car is in park.
Bottom line: Find someone with a VAG-COM or a VAS scan tool (like your local VW dealer), get the codes cleared, then drive the car to the emissions center and pass the test. Once spring arrives and the car is no longer subject to below-freezing temperatures, you won't see that code come back until next winter.
The Europeans don't have this problem, even though they have the exact same torque converter, simply because European cars don't have CEL (MIL) lights.
Michael

 

[car_guy]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (PanEuropean)

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

Bottom line: Find someone with a VAG-COM or a VAS scan tool (like your local VW dealer), get the codes cleared, then drive the car to the emissions center and pass the test.

This is good advice if it works. Our experience, albeit with a simple code reader, is that even though you "clear" the codes and the CEL goes off, the emissions equipment will still see the code and they won't pass you. It seems that the car has to be driven a while (don't know how many cycles or miles) before the code is completely erased. This is set up this way to prevent a car from passing while an emissions problem still exists.
Steven

 

[W126C]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (PanEuropean)

I agree with Michael. No one is touching my torque converter. This check engine light issue shows up on my car every time I use fuel East of the Mississippi. It's always a mis-fire on start up in one cylinder. I can't even feel any difference. Clear it after the engine warms up and all is fine. Get fuel West of the Mississippi and I never see it again.

If I left my car out in the cold for a long period of time, I would most likely get the torque converter fault code too. And the VAG-COM would show it on start up.
I think every Phaeton owner should own a VAG-COM diagnostic tool just to look at the fault codes and when they occur. The money you would save on gas just going to the dealership would pay for it.
Ok, sorry for the rant and rave but this is a touchy subject for me.

Regards,
Brent

 

[murphybaileysam]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (chrisj428)

Thank you all for your input.
This has been an unusual winter as far as the Phaeton is concerned. I filled the tank in early January, procured a heated underground garage and left town for three weeks at a time. Each time when I returned I would start the car and drive for about a half hour, if the weather wasn't horrible, return it to the garage and leave again.
My plates have to be renewed by April 30th and the emission test is a pre-requisite to obtaining the plates so I went to the testing station in Lincolnshire (Chris knows where that's at) today.
I still have half a tank of gas in the car from the early January fill-up and was worried that the gas may be starting to go bad. Tomorrow I plan on filling up to at least mix some fresh with the old fuel.
If I can find someone around here with a VAG COM I will try to have the codes reset and take the test again Monday. Otherwise it will have to wait til I get back and go in for the 40,000 mile service.
Thanks again for the thoughtful responses. I hope to see you at a GTG later in the year.

 

[mrAW11]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (murphybaileysam)

uhh, your car is under warranty, just get it fixed, then worry about the testing. besides, if you just clear faults and drive to the test center, they can tell that you havent completed enough drive cycles to complete your IM240 self tests, so you'll be told to come back later.

 

[PanEuropean]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (mrAW11)

My friend, with all due respect, you don't know squat about the subject under discussion. A W12 engine fits into a Phaeton with about 1/4 inch clearance on either side, and it takes 9 days to re/re the entire engine and transmission (essential if you want to replace a torque converter). The possibility of iatrogenic damage is about 99.9%, and there is a whole ton of work that has to be done during re-assembly that is not documented in the service manuals.
I know this because:
1) I spent two days at ZF Transmission's main overhaul plant in Zwiebrucken getting training prior to undertaking this task, and;
2) I've actually done it to my own car, and it is not something I would recommend that anyone else undertake.
European Phaetons don't have this problem (even though they use the same transmission) simply because they don't have a CEL (Check Engine Light), also known as a MIL (Malfunction Indication Light). That light is a emission control light only, not an engine health light.
Far, far better to pay for half an hour's work at the VW dealer each time you need to do an emission check (have them clear the codes,then set the readiness code) than to do the equivalent of open-heart surgery on your Phaeton and then suffer the consequential problems of that for the next two years.
Michael


Modified by PanEuropean at 9:41 PM 3-19-2008

 

[PanEuropean]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (PanEuropean)

I mean, we are talking SERIOUS disassembly here - not something you want to have to do when there is a quick work-around to avoid it.

 

[PanEuropean]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (PanEuropean)

Especially when all you wind up doing is replacing a single friggin' 50¢ O-ring.

 

[pirateat50]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (PanEuropean)

I was one of the first on this board to have the torque convertor replaced two years ago for the CEL problem. I still cringe every time the CEL problem comes up in the forum and I am reminded of the surgery that was necessary to fix the issue. Thirty thousand miles later I still wait for something to go "sproong!" Had I know then what I know now, I'd be VAG-ing it.

 

[sjthiele]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (murphybaileysam)

Quote, originally posted by murphybaileysam »

If I can find someone around here with a VAG COM I will try to have the codes reset and take the test again Monday. Otherwise it will have to wait til I get back and go in for the 40,000 mile service.

Go see Conrad @ City VW, probably the best VW/Audi SA in Chicagoland, plus he has a VAG-COM that he's willing to use if you give him a good enough reason.
SJT

 

[murphybaileysam]

When I take the car back for re-testing the test center is going to want to see documentation showing the car was repaired before they will let it get tested again. I'm thinking the best solution may be to leave the car at Autobarn and have them reset the codes when they do the 40K service with explicit instructions NOT to even think about replacing the torque converter.
If anyone from Autobarn is following this post (Tony), let me know when would be the best time to bring the car in!

 

[Stinky999]

Re: (murphybaileysam)

I'm pretty sure you are allowed one retest without any sort of service documentation. I know I have done this with my '72 911 on several occaisions over the last 10 years. I take it in to see where it's at, it fails, I drive home change the oil and lean out the mixture screws on the carbs so it runs like crap, drive back and it passes (then I stop around the block and richen it back up so it runs right!). I've never had to show them anything. I think if you want a 3rd test, then they want proof that you are doing something to try and make it better. Now, it's possible that this "free" retest only applies to older cars.

 

[murphybaileysam]

The whole deal changed on January 1st 2008 with the new legislation. Now you have to bring the written documentation back which shows what was done, by whom and what it cost. It can be done by the motorist or a repair facility but it actually has to be signed and verified. Crazy but true!

 

[Stinky999]

Re: (murphybaileysam)

That should work out well for the auto repair facilities accross the state. They must have made a nice contribution to the Governor.

 

[murphybaileysam]

Re: (Stinky999)

If this Governor follows in the footsteps of most of our recent ones, he may be making license plates himself pretty soon.

 

[PanEuropean]

Re: (murphybaileysam)

Quote, originally posted by murphybaileysam »

...Now you have to bring the written documentation back which shows what was done, by whom and what it cost.

I don't see this as being a big problem in this context. Take the car to the VW dealer, ask them to clear the fault codes then manually set the readiness code for the W12 engine. Then take the car to the testing facility and show them the paperwork that says 'cleared fault codes, set engine readiness code'. As long as the engine/transmission is not allowed to cold-soak between the work at the VW dealer and the emission test, all should be well.
Michael

 

[mrAW11]

Re: Phaeton Phlunks Emission control test (PanEuropean)

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

My friend, with all due respect, you don't know squat about the subject under discussion. A W12 engine fits into a Phaeton with about 1/4 inch clearance on either side, and it takes 9 days to re/re the entire engine and transmission (essential if you want to replace a torque converter). The possibility of iatrogenic damage is about 99.9%, and there is a whole ton of work that has to be done during re-assembly that is not documented in the service manuals. I know this because: 1) I spent two days at ZF Transmission's main overhaul plant in Zwiebrucken getting training prior to undertaking this task, and; 2) I've actually done it to my own car, and it is not something I would recommend that anyone else undertake. European Phaetons don't have this problem (even though they use the same transmission) simply because they don't have a CEL (Check Engine Light), also known as a MIL (Malfunction Indication Light). That light is a emission control light only, not an engine health light. Far, far better to pay for half an hour's work at the VW dealer each time you need to do an emission check (have them clear the codes,then set the readiness code) than to do the equivalent of open-heart surgery on your Phaeton and then suffer the consequential problems of that for the next two years. Michael Modified by PanEuropean at 9:41 PM 3-19-2008

thats quite interesting since i've personally replaced w12 torque converters with the engine still in the car. i can show you the directions on ELSA if you truly want a how to.
but the point of the matter is this, someone owns a car thats under warranty and has a repair that is needed to pass an emissions test. so why not just get the car fixed?