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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

Well I was just looking in the manual, I dont see in the manual about removing the studs from bearing plate, and I dont think you could get it seperate. You best bet is to get another one used or new. 18 ft lbs plus a 1/4 turn is right. I dont see how you snapped that stud but anything is possible, could just have been weak. Better it broke now than when in the car running. The other thing, the turning torque on the pinion shaft should be measured with the pinion shaft only, bolted to specs with nothing on it, no gears on it, should be just the shaft, and only be check bolted to the bellhousing, not with the other half of the case.
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
Is replying to yourself one step away from talking to yourself?

Yes, i'm afraid it is
.

Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »

In thinking this through more, those stretch bolts must be pretty important to get preload right. If I torque them when they have already been stretched, I expect that they will not have proper pressure and therefore the preload will be off. But if it within spec, will this matter? Yes, I know my preload is too low as it sits. Can't the torque on the bolts be used to set the proper preload, if you are using the right size of shim?

Stretch doesn't affect preload, when doing a clearance check like that you tighten to the torque spec only, the stretch to yield is a final assemble spec.
Most stretch bolts will stretch twice and survive but some will snap which is what makes them 1 time use, a second cycle cannot be guaranteed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (HGB)

Thanks. I did notice that the preload seemed to be the same when I had the other case half on and when I had it off.
Will it matter if the gears are on or off when preload is checked?
I am careful and use torque wrenches where most other people would not. I waited for it to click and then set my torque wrench to the 12 o clock position, then turned it to the three o'clock position. It really tightened up those other bolts. But remember, this was 5 pounds below spec when I started, so all of those are too low right now, and very tight. I was just about to the 3 o'clock position when I felt the bolt give. I couldn't believe that it snapped.
Those bolts do not come out and appear to be pressed in to the plate and there is a shoulder on the bottom side of the plate. It might be visible in some pictures.
This is the type of information that I thank you all for helping me with. Hopefully these posts will provide a wealth of info for those who follow. (I bet Stoned_Elvis will buy a new carrier assembly!)
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
Thanks. I did notice that the preload seemed to be the same when I had the other case half on and when I had it off.
Will it matter if the gears are on or off when preload is checked?

No
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
Thanks. I did notice that the preload seemed to be the same when I had the other case half on and when I had it off.

Quote, originally posted by Broke from the other thread »
Output shaft -
The procedure looks to be the same as for the 020, so that is covered on my site. The only changes look to be the bearing clamping plate bolt torque, for the 02A it is 18 ft-lbs + 1/4 turn; and the final turning torque of the shaft with new bearings....your 02A should be 12-16 inch-pounds of turning torque..
Install the small bearing and 0.65mm shim, don't rotate shaft to settle bearings, measure play, add play, 0.65mm shim, and a preload constant of 0.20mm to get final shim size. They look to use the same 020 shims and part numbers, so those can be found on my site too.

No mention of bolting the case together

I also wanted to say good job on the pics, I know doing a job and stopping to snap pics is a PITA....
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Broke - Trainee
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (Broke)

Quote, originally posted by Broke »

I also wanted to say good job on the pics, I know doing a job and stopping to snap pics is a PITA.
Broke - Trainee

How else could I have guys like you watching over my shoulder? Thanks. By the way, there is no sense in reinventing the wheel on these pictures. If you want to take them and use any for any purpose, such as adding to your site some 02A info, feel free to use them in any way you wish.
One of my problems is that I live in a rural area of Manitoba, Canada. I there is a VW satellite dealer in a City nearby, but they pretty much have to order everything in terms of parts. Each time I have to order something that I need right away, I have to wait a week.
Those who know what's what will have noticed that the bearing on the carrier with the broken bolt is only one of two that I did not originally replace. There is also a needle bearing behind first that I did not get to, as it meant pulling first gear off, and my puller would not reach all that easily. The needle bearings so far have been in pretty good shape, and first and second gear get little use. However, this tranny has about 250,000 KM on it. Replacing that broken bolt AND getting a new bearing is probably a good idea. Really, doing it right is the only choice.
I take it that I have to bolt the case together to do the input shaft? (Might as well get THAT straight now!)
And, my turning torque is down to about 6 inch pounds on the output shaft...below the spec of 12-16. Should I order a thicker shim? Or is this low number likely due to the fact that the bearing plate is not torqued down properly yet?
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (Old-man-Dubsy)

Quote, originally posted by Old-man-Dubsy »

Stretch doesn't affect preload, when doing a clearance check like that you tighten to the torque spec only, the stretch to yield is a final assemble spec.

I missed the subtle info here, the first time reading this.
So, when measuring preload, you tighten to 18 foot pounds. If you get a proper preload measurement, that is the measurement that matters. THEN you tighten to spec by adding the 1/4 turn. And, am I right in thinking that the preload MEASUREMENT might change from spec after the stretch because the bearing is being drawn in tighter to the race with the 1/4 turn of additional pull on the bolt? In other words, once you have it properly assembled, the spec of 12-18 lbs might not be what you would measure....you have to check preload without the 1/4 turn? (It is only the right measurement for prior to the 1/4 turn?)Or will the preload stay the same after the bolts are torqued because the bearing and race are already as tight as they will be? This would be interesting, because it would mean that you could not use the spec number of 12-18 on a fully assembled tranny.
I don't really understand stretch bolts...and I am not sure I like them.
It looks like this job will cost me about $500.00 without touching a gear. I hope my gears are in good enough shape for this to be worth it!
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

Can't you order your parts from a bigger dealer and have them shipped to you, cut out the middle man.
No need to bolt the case on for the shaft preload, case is only needed for the diff.
The preload shouldn't alter with the extra 1/4 turn, it should already be fully seated, you are just stretching the bolt with the extra turn.
Your bearing preload will be less now, you lost 25% of the clamp force.
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
I take it that I have to bolt the case together to do the input shaft? (Might as well get THAT straight now!)

Yes, as the input shaft is supported on each end with a tapered bearing in each half of the case.
The output shaft is supported on one end with a roller bearing, and that is free to slide along the shaft (in comparison to the clamped down tapered bearings), so it won't contribute to preload, so that half of the case is not needed. The preload is between the clamping plate and the tapered bearing.
The input shaft and diff are supported by taper bearings without clamp plates because the case halves act as the clamp plate. This is why it is required to have the case bolted together for those 2 adjustments. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
And, my turning torque is down to about 6 inch pounds on the output shaft...below the spec of 12-16. Should I order a thicker shim? Or is this low number likely due to the fact that the bearing plate is not torqued down properly yet?

I'd wait until the new clamping plate is installed, and wouldnt pay any attention to the figures without the parts properly installed.
Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
So, when measuring preload, you tighten to 18 foot pounds. If you get a proper preload measurement, that is the measurement that matters. THEN you tighten to spec by adding the 1/4 turn.

No, tighten to 18 plus 1/4 turn.
Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
And, am I right in thinking that the preload MEASUREMENT might change from spec after the stretch because the bearing is being drawn in tighter to the race with the 1/4 turn of additional pull on the bolt?

Yes, I think it would, as it is pulling the clamping plate down tighter.
Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
In other words, once you have it properly assembled, the spec of 12-18 lbs might not be what you would measure....you have to check preload without the 1/4 turn?

Nope, check with the 1/4 turn added.
Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
Or will the preload stay the same after the bolts are torqued because the bearing and race are already as tight as they will be?

No, it'll make the bearing tighter I'd think.
Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
This would be interesting, because it would mean that you could not use the spec number of 12-18 on a fully assembled tranny.

The only time that spec would be used is when the trans is stripped and the output shaft is bolted into the clutch housing only and the turning torque is measured. The turning torque on the output shaft on a fully assembled trans that is turning all those gears (and diff and the preload on it) when it spins will be far greater than it is on the shaft spinning by itself in the bearing, so the 12-18 spec is only good in that one situation during the rebuild.
The diff measurement is measuring only the diff as well, without an output shaft installed, so you're reading only those 2 tapered diff carrier bearing turning torque measurements.
Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
I don't really understand stretch bolts...and I am not sure I like them.

Old Man Dubsy is the one to ask about bolt stuff, he knows a good bit about the applications and reasons behind them.
The factory papers I have do not mention them as being a stretch bolt, nor does it say "always renew" as it does with every other single part that they want to be used only once (such as the 4 sealing rings for the bolts in question).....but they may presume you are doing the job for a rebuild, and knowing the bearing is available only with a new clamp plate, and thus new bolts, they may not have mentioned that the item is a one time use item.
That being said, I don't think (I've not checked the nut/stud grade and size specs yet or anything) that the factory spec of 18 ft-lbs + 1/4 is to the yield point of the bolt/stud...and I'm pretty positive your 13 ft-lbs + 1/4 turn isn't near the yield point for the bolt....so I'm not sure why it snapped

Quote, originally posted by PASHAT »
It looks like this job will cost me about $500.00 without touching a gear. I hope my gears are in good enough shape for this to be worth it!

It gets expensive....especially when you insist on replacing all the little things inside that should be replaced when the trans is opened, and replacing the things that wear while you are in there.
This is what I use from the trans when I rebuild an 020 (and the case, not pictured)...

...and this is what gets replaced (the rivet stud is replaced with a bolt kit of course)...

You can cut corners with cheaper bearings and sync rings and seals and so on, by not buying OEM parts, but the savings isn't worth it in my opinion, so that means paying a little extra for german parts like sync rings from Laso and bearings from ***/INA and seals from Kaco and so on
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Add in the time it takes to clean everything, sandblast and then bead blast the case, zinc plate the exterior bits (ugly parts on a beautiful beadblasted case is no good, and refinished is cheaper than new, and I plate them in house so it is easy to do, so I plate the release arm, drain plugs and flanges), and you have quite a bit invested in a rebuilt trans.

When they're smooth like butter and shift nice and are nice and quiet though, it is all worth it. Too bad they don't stay nice looking longer....I think I'll anodize my next case

Broke
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (Broke)

Here’s tonight’ pictures, for all you addicts out there who like to see a fellow VW er suffer! Text is below pictures.

Picture One hundred and Six - I went and retorqued the three remaining bolts to 18 foot pounds (which I calculated to 216 inch pounds, n’est pas?) Then I did the preload check. It was 8 at most, and was about 6-8 at all times…often at 6. This is below spec. Perhaps I cleaned everything too well? If only I had left that grime there!


Picture 107 - Doing a preload test for the output shaft, what I like to refer to as ‘the RIGHT way’!


Picture 108 - Just want to see some of you shed a few tears. (I am sure I could just cut that bolt off, punch it out, cut threads into the plate and thread a new bolt in from the bell housing. Just look at that shoulder…that would take a lot of threads! WARNING FOR THOSE LITERAL READERS: I am Kidding. Do it right!)

Picture 109 - First gear prevents the removal of the bolt without first removing first gear.

Picture 110 – Those shoulders do look thick enough to get good threads into!!

The following pictures are about what is coming next. I will be replacing that carrier bearing with the new bolts attached, and will likely work on the other parts while I am awaiting the arrival of that part.

Picture 111 - I will be replacing the reverse gear shaft bearings.

Picture 112 - What I did not realize was that the race was still in the block. How the HECK do you get THAT out?



Picture 113 – I will be replacing the bearing on the bottom of the input shaft

Picture 114 - I will also, of course, replace the bearing race for the bottom of the input shaft. However, I see that there appears to be no shoulder for this. How do you determine how far to press this in? Any tips or advice out there?

Picture 115 – The bearing at the top of the input shaft. Looks fairly straight forward…at least when the bearing is still in the bag!

Picture 116 - The bearing for the top of the input shaft, for 5th gear. What is the assembly called that this goes into?


Picture 117 – I found that I had ordered the bearing that goes behind first gear. I had meant to order the second gear bearing, but at least there is one less that I have to buy!

Am I missing anything? All thoughts, opinions, criticism and praise are welcome. (Especially praise.)




Modified by PASHAT at 7:35 AM 11-10-2006
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (Broke)

Quote »
...and this is what gets replaced (the rivet stud is replaced with a bolt kit of course)...
Broke


I don't know Broke....some of those parts look a wee bit "filthy"!!!!
HAHAHA!!!


Modified by PASHAT at 9:06 PM 11-9-2006
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

You will have to take off all those gears from the pinion shaft if you want an accurate reading of turning torque, and that broken stud has to taken care of. Did you try to take it out of the plate? You will have to pull all those gear off and try to get it out, I think it was just pressed in.
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (stoned_elvis)

By the way Elvis, did you check the price on the blind hole puller set from snap on? with the biggest puller out of the set being the one for the small pinion race its about $1400!!, otc wants $780. And these stop at about 30 mm. I would get the right tool for the job, but sometimes you have to be creative and come up with some real special tools.
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (HGB)

Quote, originally posted by HGB »
You will have to take off all those gears from the pinion shaft if you want an accurate reading of turning torque,

reason for that? never seen that in the manual on 02a's...
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (HGB)

Quote, originally posted by HGB »
By the way Elvis, did you check the price on the blind hole puller set from snap on? with the biggest puller out of the set being the one for the small pinion race its about $1400!!, otc wants $780. And these stop at about 30 mm. I would get the right tool for the job, but sometimes you have to be creative and come up with some real special tools.

i have checked it out. i dont have any problems buying tools but i think i would only use this tool once. i even thought about makeing one on a lathe. i check ebay daily. i have time to think about it since my road block are chewed up reverese gears.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (stoned_elvis)

Here is what I have done today:
I ordered the new bearing cage.
I ordered a new circlip for the shaft below 2nd gear. And I ordered a second one just in case.
I ordered a 1.05 and a 1.10 shim
I phoned the dealer back and ordered the four little round o rings that I found out, when I called back, did not come with the assembly.
I responded to this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2922164
(Funny stuff...and room for more funny stuff!)
I looked into getting that broken shifter hub assembly.
I plan to work on the input shaft tomorrow. Any thoughts on an easy way to remove that reverse shaft bearing race. I also need information about how to set the bearing race on the bottom (engine side) of the input shaft. There is no shoulder for that that I can see. Does it push in from the interior of the shell or the bell housing side? How do you know when to stop?


Modified by PASHAT at 6:04 PM 11-10-2006
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

I was able to use that cheap puller to get the reverse bearing out, with heat. Will post pictures later when I have more time. I am still unsure of that bottom bearing race for the input shaft. It appears that it can be inserted from either side, which means that it can be pushed too far in. It will, when the input shaft tube is installed, likely back into that, but obviously the placement of this race is pretty important and cannot be off by a few thousands of an inch. Any specs in the manual? Any advice?
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

Here is todays photo shoot, so far:


Picture 118 - I heated the back side of the reverse bearing holder with a torch to heat it up.



Picture 119 - I applied something cold to the bearing to cool it off. This, for those of you who haven’t seen it, is snow. It is basically just frozen water but is somehow different from ice. I could have used either snow or ice, as there is plenty outside my shop. Now, there is little bits of snow on my work table. Those bits will still be there when I go out later on.
Hence my rush to get this done.

I tried all sorts of things to get this bearing out. I tried using vice grips, after I heated it, but they couldn’t grab the wee bit that was sticking out. It appears to be a bit rounded. Then I thought of a bearing separator that I could wedge in, but the bearing could not be accessed this way by the parts of the case that stick up higher than it. I also tried to “slam” it, which Old Man Dubsy told me was more of a firm planting on the wooden table from a few inches up. It did not work. Perhaps the case needed to be hotter.
Finally I tried a chisel, which was a mistake. The bearing is actually surrounded by a lip in the case. NO WAY to get a chisel in there. The gap between the bearing and the case is recessed. See later pictures. All I did was bang up the case. No real harm done, but I had to make sure that no bits of aluminum were pushed into the exposed seat for the bearing.
I was going to try to thread a bolt into the bearing race at the bottom where it narrows, but then I thought of my cheap 12.00 puller. Surely that wouldn’t work……

Picture 120 – Wrong – O! With a little modification this had potential. I re-heated the case. (Now, why would it have cooled off? The temp was only -5 C……..You can talk in Celsius, can’t you)

Picture 121 – Success. The case is on its side so that I can heat on one side and pull on the other.

Picture 122 – The damage I did with the chisel method. What did someone say about not being able to expect perfection on your first tranny rebuild. Also note the large hole in the case above the reverse bearing hole. This is the place where the bearing for the input shaft should go. It might look like there is a shoulder on the bottom, but the hole actually gets bigger there. There is nothing to prevent the bearing from being pushed too deep, I don’t think. Since this bearings placement will have an effect on preload of the input shaft, I would like to get this right. Should I just press it in flush? Which side should I press from?

Picture 123 – I started the bearing by hand.

Picture 124 - I used a mallet and a piece of wood to drive this. The contact surface of the bearing race is very small, so I did not use the old bearing at this point. I was not sure about using heat to assist here. Seems to me that if this got too hot it might damage the plastic needle bearing sleeve.

Picture 125 – I then made sure that this bearing was seated. I had to line the old bearing race up carefully so as to make sure that it was pushing only on the edges of the new one. I was concerned that if it slid over the force would damage the needle bearings or their plastic carrier.
With some assistance on the procedures to get the input shaft done, I will continue to make progress.
Thanks to so many for all the assistance so far. It has been very appreciated. I welcome all comments and also all criticism. I don’t want to post something that is wrong for others to see, so correct me if I make an error.



Modified by PASHAT at 8:09 PM 11-11-2006
 

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Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (PASHAT)

When heating the case you have to heat all the case so that it all expands, local heating never works unless you get it really really hot (not advised on alloy or cast).
The bearing should have a lip, it has to have a physical stop to set the pre-load. What does the old bearing race look like? It's should have a ring round it.
Chisel
, you know that's a tool for damaging stuff, stuff you want to break. I'm fairly sure a chisel isn't in the list of tools required for trans work
.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Re: Pictures of Full 02A Bearing Replacement - You can help!! (Old-man-Dubsy)

Chisel? I was sure that I was using VW special tool "DumbArse". Okay. I learned my lesson. Never again. At least I am admitting my mistakes and not trying to hide my stupidity. As if I could.
The race for that bearing does not have a ring/lip around it. The one that I removed also did not have a ring around it. Both have flat sides. You can see the bearing race in picture 114. That is exactly the same as the original. No lip like the other bearings on the top side of the tranny...it is like the one that goes in the well from hell, except the well has a bottom to it to stop the bearing.
I presume that the bearing race has to install by pushing the wide side in first, as the wide side is rounded. My guess is that it should go in until it is flush. It might bottom out if the tranny input shaft seal holder was bolted into place, but I don' think that would be a reliable stop.
I'm sure there IS no stop on this tranny! And I agree that it needs one What does Bentley say about this?
Quote, originally posted by Old-man-Dubsy »
Chisel
, you know that's a tool for damaging stuff, stuff you want to break.

This tranny is starting to fall into that category.....!
 
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