[montanawabbit]

I have an '81 Rabbit that I just had the motor rebuilt on. The motor and trans are still out of the car, and I bolted the motor to the trans to install it. I used a brand new Rhinopac 17-004 200 mm clutch assy, which is the model for an '81, and a 200 mm is what came out of it. The problem is, when you pull up on the clutch arm, you can use one finger to get it all the way to the 10 o'clock position, which is where it should have the pressure plate fully released, and naturally, it's not released at all.
I've had the whole thing apart about 20 times now, and everything is in correctly. The pressure plate is bolted to the motor, the release plate is in with the retaining spring (only one possible way to put that in.) The disc is in with the side stamped "this side faces motor" facing the motor. The flywheel is in with the pins in their slots. The top two, and firewall side bolts are in for the trans to motor attachment. I have a c-clamp holding them together where the starter should be.
I did put the new throwout bearing in, and I did try it with the old throwout bearing in it, still didn't work. The finger that pushes the throwout bearing is not crack, and does bottom out in the slot for the throwout bearing when the arm is in the 10:00 position. I did just try adding the old throwout bearing on top of the new one, and then the pressure plate did disengage and the arm had the proper amount of force needed to pull it up, but I know better than to try to run it rigged like that.
The really crazy thing is that I put a straight edge across the bellhousing and measured to the tip of the release rod when it's at 10:00 on the arm (with only one throwout bearing, of course,) and it would be 1 and 1/8" from the tip of the rod to the back edge of the block. I then stuck a rule in the indentation in the release plate, measured from there to the face of the flywheel, then measured from the face of the flywheel to the block and subtracted the first measurement from the second, the inside of the hole being 1 and 7/8" from the back of the block, which should mean that the rod would be able to push the plate in 3/4". So mathematically, it should work fine.
One last thing, the 5 speed I'm putting in it was the one on the motor when I disassembled it, and it worked fine. I also have the original 4 speed, so I gave that a try, and it's the same situation, no release, and that trans was fine when it came off.
I'm completely stumped, about 10 of my friends are completely stumped, and I'm desperate to finally get this car going, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Tim

 

[Broke]

Re: Please help with '81 Diesel clutch problems (montanawabbit)

Welcome to the Vortex http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

Quote, originally posted by montanawabbit »

I've had the whole thing apart about 20 times now, and everything is in correctly.

Next time you have the trans off, check to see where the pushrod is in relation ot the end of the input shaft. When the release arm is at rest, sitting on the black plastic stopper, the pushrod should stick out just a few millimeters... just over flush, sometimes right about flush.
The important measurement is when the release arm is lifted fully.... there should be about 24mm of pushrod sticking out past the end of the input shaft.
If those measurements are OK, the trans should be OK.
The pushrod should be 13-3/8" long when new, make sure it isn't too short.
I have some pics with measurements at the bottom of this page http://www.brokevw.com/releasearm.html but the clutch parts shown are 210mm parts, and I don't know if that will change anything when compared to 200mm parts.

Quote, originally posted by montanawabbit »

The really crazy thing is that I put a straight edge across the bellhousing and measured to the tip of the release rod when it's at 10:00 on the arm (with only one throwout bearing, of course,) and it would be 1 and 1/8" from the tip of the rod to the back edge of the block.

1.125" comes out to about 28.5mm, but I measured it at 33.5mm, so your pushrod is sticking out more by about 5mm, or my figure is wrong (I'll double check it shortly).

Quote, originally posted by montanawabbit »

I then stuck a rule in the indentation in the release plate, measured from there to the face of the flywheel, then measured from the face of the flywheel to the block and subtracted the first measurement from the second, the inside of the hole being 1 and 7/8" from the back of the block

I measured from the block to the tip of the clutch hub (which sticks out further than the FW), and that was 82mm. I measured from the tip of the clutch hub down into the hole to the release plate, which was 36mm. Subtracting them, I get that the release plate (bottom of the hole) to the block is 46mm.
Your measurement, which I think is measuring the same thing, is 1-7/8" which is 1.875" which is 47.5mm, which is pretty close to what I got.
Measure the pushrod sticking out of the input shaft, and let me know how much that is. Both when the arm is sitting at rest on the stopper, and then when it is lifted fully to about 10:00.
Do you have a pic of the clutch parts installed onto the block?

 

[montanawabbit]

Thanks for the reply, Broke. I'll pull it apart again in the morning and get some pictures, and the other measurements you requested. I really appreciate the response.

 

[montanawabbit]

Re: (montanawabbit)

Okay, the measurements are as follows:
On stopper, the rod protrudes a hair over 3mm
At 9:00 it is a hair over 11 mm
At 10:00 it is a little over 28 mm
As far as pictures, I took several, but have no idea how to post them here. If you want, I can e-mail them to you.

 

[montanawabbit]

Here is the address where the pics can be viewed.
http://pbckt.com/sB.V9O
Note...I had the clips off of the release finger when I took the pics, so that's why you can see the gear for the finger for release bearing.

 

[Broke]

Re: (montanawabbit)

Quote, originally posted by montanawabbit »

Okay, the measurements are as follows: On stopper, the rod protrudes a hair over 3mm At 9:00 it is a hair over 11 mm At 10:00 it is a little over 28 mm

Well, that is about right, the 3mm and 28mm are about what I expected, but the 17mm difference between 9:00 and 10:00 is too much. I checked a few trans, it is should less than 10mm difference between 9:00 when the pushrod should be hitting the release plate and 10:00 when it should be disengaged.
I checked a 1982 build FK code I have here, and it is a few MM past at rest, then at 9:00 it is at about 19mm or so, which is with the release arm pointing at the bolt as shown in this pic:

Lifted fully until it stops, I get about 27mm, which is more than the 24mm I expected, but it should be more than enough to collapse your PP.
On your trans, lifting the arm fully pushes the pushrod out 28mm and with the trans and engine together, you can lift it to the same 10:00 by hand easily, without collapsing the pressure plate.... yeah, I'm stumped as well!
You were able to collapse the pressure plate by adding another bearing, so it isn't that the PP is collapsed already for some reason.... I was going to ask if you could get pics showing the PP fit down into the FW off the engine, to see if there was something not fitting right, and then one with the clutch disc in there as well... but if you were able to collapse the PP, then that won't be the problem.

Quote, originally posted by montanawabbit »

Note...I had the clips off of the release finger when I took the pics, so that's why you can see the gear for the finger for release bearing.

I noticed that before reading that part... I seem to recall some trans that the shaft or the finger doesn't have an index to locate it in just one spot.... it can be slipped onto the shaft splines in any position.
Can the finger be slipped on in any spot in your trans?
Kind of a pointless question, because if it was moved, it would change the amount the pushrod is pushed out, or the amount the pushrod can retract when the arm is at rest, and with your pushrod being at 3mm and 28mm, the finger must be in the right spot.
Same with asking the length of the rod... if it was not 13-3/8" long, the 3mm and 28mm wouldn't match up.

I wish it was closer, I'd have a look at it in person, but I'm not sure what the problem could be at the moment... nothing seems wrong besides one pushrod measurement, and the end measurements are pretty much right (3mm and 28mm), so I'm not sure what to make of it, to be honest.

With it having started with the clutch kit, I'd say you have to suspect it, especially if the old trans won't work now with the kit either.

 

[montanawabbit]

I'm glad I'm not the only one stumped. Actually, I wish I was the only one stumped, then I'd have a running car. I'll be giving the clutch company a call tomorrow and see what they have to say. Worst case, the local NAPA can have a Sach's clutch for me on Tuesday, and hopefully, if all else fails, that fixes the problem. Thanks again for all your help so far, and I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[montanawabbit]

Hey Broke,
I got my new Sach's pressure plate today and put it together, and it works fine. I couldn't see any difference bewteen this pressure plate and the Rhinopac plate, but I guess it just goes to show that on a German car you use German parts, not Korean parts. Now for the fun part of actually getting the motor in and finally getting this thing up and running after two years.

 

[Broke]

Re: (montanawabbit)

Quote, originally posted by montanawabbit »

Hey Broke, I got my new Sach's pressure plate today and put it together, and it works fine. I couldn't see any difference bewteen this pressure plate and the Rhinopac plate, but I guess it just goes to show that on a German car you use German parts, not Korean parts. Now for the fun part of actually getting the motor in and finally getting this thing up and running after two years.

Glad you've got it taken care of!
I try to stick with OE manufacturers of parts, and if I can, OE German parts.
I learned my lesson years ago with Italian made OCAP brand control arms. Febi made in Germany arms for me from now on