[ny_fam]

Know few had tried these and had good results with similar list of mods. I wanted to provide an update and look for some new options to fine tune things.
After driving the car for a season with the list of mods and changed including the grooves in the cylinder head, I'm please with the power increase, but the dyno chart shows I'm running lean 14:1 from 2k to 6k then goes rich. I suspect an air leak ?
My list of mods made at the same time the grooves where done:
* Self ported head, polished chambers ( but didn't get a valve job at this time)
* Adjustable cam gear
*Kent Gs2 cam (based on the lift measurements and the internet user claiming to have the same cam with the same markings)
*Increased compression to 9.5:1
*All out ported A1 intake manifold ( flows %25 more than stock)
* A2 throttle body
* custom intake air tube
* new Mercedes brass 190E injectors

Few things i have noticed:
1) the engine runs cool(er) lower oil temp etc then last year..
2) been running with US spec cheap gas with out destroying the engine
3) The engine wants to idle at 500 rpms, It seems that the engine would benefit from a different ignition curve, like less initial. ??
4) I don't know about mileage, I don't keep track- I don't think I'm getting worse mileage than before all my performance upgrades. So lots more power for the same mileage is good.
5) Power increase is noticeable
About Grooves: http://scientificrabbit.com/in...id=14

My Setup info in the signature..
Winter tare down plans are to fix the grooves length and up the compression to 10:1.
I need to do a compression test too before I tare things apart.
Cheers


Modified by ny_fam at 1:28 AM 12-14-2006

Modified by ny_fam at 1:30 AM 12-14-2006


Modified by ny_fam at 3:42 PM 12-24-2006

 

[riceatingrabbit]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (ny_fam)

cool http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

 

[ny_fam]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (ny_fam)

Anyone else running grooves have experience to share ?
Cheers

 

[wclark]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (ny_fam)

Based almost completely on the threads on this forum I decided I would do this to my race engine when it comes out this winter for some other upgrades. The other upgrades are aimed at improving intake airflow and I will probably switch to a tube exhaust header from the dual outlet cast manifold I have now. Since some of the changes reported from adding the grooves are similar to improving engine breathing it may be difficult for me to isolate the improvements from the grooves alone. However I am expecting mostly improved high RPM power from the intake and exhaust changes and anything else I see I will probably attribute to the grooving.

 

[ny_fam]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (wclark)

wclark,
When you get around to putting the grooves on please take some pictures and share them on the web here.
Cheers

 

[Clint VW VW wood]

anyone know of a place that does this in the PNW?

 

[ny_fam]

Re: (Clint VW VW wood)

I don't know of any place anywhere the specializes in putting grooves in. The people who paid someone to do the work have paid the mechanic who did the head work for them to cut the grooves.
I'd check out the inventor's website out, you should be able to connect with someone there.
http://somender-singh.com/
Cheers

 

[wclark]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (ny_fam)

Quote, originally posted by ny_fam »

wclark, When you get around to putting the grooves on please take some pictures and share them on the web here. Cheers

I will be happy to.

 

[Clint VW VW wood]

I am interested in a picture as well.. im slightly confused about where to put the grooves.. and what length/depth. I've got a high compression 8v that I know would love to idle at 500 rpms and I just moved into a place with a garage.
if you show me yours, I'll show you mine

 

[84_GLI_coupe]

Re: (Clint VW VW wood)

It's on my long list for the next fun engine.

 

[speedtek40]

These are the pics ny_fam sent me

 

[The Quinner]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (ny_fam)

More power to you for trying "new" things and trying to expand your understanding of things...and, I can agree that there might be more turbulence on compression...
But...what happens on the firing stroke? Wouldn't the grooves allow the "bang" to dissipate instead of being concentrated? What about the intake stroke? The exhaust stroke?
A four stroke has just that...four strokes. There is a LOT of science missing from this story.
BTW...and, I don't mean to pick you or your ideas apart...but, increasing compression does not increase turbulence. The science is that compressing any fuel/air mixture makes it burn faster and with more energy...turbulence helps to distribute the fuel more evenly within the air...ALLOWING a higher compression ratio which gives the faster burn.
In the 70s, there were a bunch of "vortex" intake manifolds and carb spigots...the idea was to more thoroughly mix the air fuel mixture...which they did. But, it was upstream of the intake valve...and, turbulence there is undesireable. Concentrating on a single point of an engine and ignoring the rest...

 

[ny_fam]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (The Quinner)

Quote, originally posted by The Quinner »

More power to you for trying "new" things and trying to expand your understanding of things...and, I can agree that there might be more turbulence on compression...

OK

Quote, originally posted by The Quinner »

But...what happens on the firing stroke? Wouldn't the grooves allow the "bang" to dissipate instead of being concentrated? What about the intake stroke? The exhaust stroke?

The idea for the firing stroke is the same, a turbulante mixture burns more complete. The Grooves allow for the flame front to reach areas of the chamber(between squish pads) quicker and burn quicker. my understanding is that a quicker, cleaner burn is not as hot? Thus less hot spots - reduce the pre-ignition.
I really don;t know how the intake stroke or exhaust would benefit or be harmed by the grooves.. Any ideas here?

A four stroke has just that...four strokes. There is a LOT of science missing from this story.
FYI - See the inventors website for more of the story. And better answers.

Quote, originally posted by The Quinner »

BTW...and, I don't mean to pick you or your ideas apart...but, increasing compression does not increase turbulence.

Hey the ideas are here to be picked apart and filled in ..
Higher compression may or may not increase turbulence - it does increase the thermal efficiency.

Quote, originally posted by The Quinner »

The science is that compressing any fuel/air mixture makes it burn faster and with more energy...turbulence helps to distribute the fuel more evenly within the air...ALLOWING a higher compression ratio which gives the faster burn.

True - with the higher compression is higher heat. Faster burn possibly, not necesarly complete. With the heat comes the quicker to ignite fact, thus high octane gass(slower burn).

Quote, originally posted by The Quinner »

In the 70s, there were a bunch of "vortex" intake manifolds and carb spigots...the idea was to more thoroughly mix the air fuel mixture...which they did. But, it was upstream of the intake valve...and, turbulence there is undesireable. Concentrating on a single point of an engine and ignoring the rest...

Agreed turbulence in the intake tract reduces the VE of the entire engine.
Hope this thread doesn't indicate that Grooves solve all problems. But provides grounds for some power gains, with not all the trade offs. Note the power gains from the Grooves are not unique, you get the gains with or with out the grooves by increasing the compression.
But the advantage seen by many who have done this mod is 10:1 compression without 91 octane gas or a knock sensor ignition.
And a more smooth idle with large cam engines.
Guys on with 240 Turbo volvos are using the grooves to up the boost on the same octane gas.
Would be great if we could understand the true advantages and the reasons why. But since we can't see inside the IC engine its all an educated guess.
Cheers
ny_fam

 

[The Quinner]

Re: Progress report from those with Grooves on the cylinder head (ny_fam)

Quote, originally posted by ny_fam »

Would be great if we could understand the true advantages and the reasons why. But since we can't see inside the IC engine its all an educated guess. Cheers ny_fam

Not at all true. Combustion engineers have been looking at (and, more importantly high-speed filming) the inner workings of internal combustion engines for quite a few years now.
The problem is when someone has a theory based on a narrow set of assumptions. But...along with those assumptions and parameters, they change almost everything else. Then, they attribute any and all results to the narrow assumptions and parameters.
A complete cylinder head rebuild with a mild P&P alone...without any grooves...will do most of what is claimed. That is, a great deal of work is done to restore the components to specification (a "stageI" or mild P&P is really nothing more than removing the flaws that are a by product of the manufacturing process). But...this restoration is ignored and all gains are attributed to the "outside the box" thinking.
I did read the inventor's info...this time and at least once before when you posted the links. As a scientist, I see all sorts of flaws in the process which make me skeptical. A more methodological approach would go a long way to legitimizing the proposal and arguments made. The "scientific method" is missing from this science. There are too many variables that are not controlled in the experimental phase...so, the conclusions are suspect.

 

[wclark]

Re: (The Quinner)

If you are worried about it, do the science thing and publish your results.

 

[The Quinner]

Re: (wclark)

Quote, originally posted by wclark »

If you are worried about it, do the science thing and publish your results.

I'm sorry if I said something to make you defensive...
No...I'm certainly not worried about this subject...other than the fact that it represents many of the classic pseudo-science traits...vague experimental processes with sharp conclusions. This is exactly why "new" things are published and presented to peers...so the processes and conclusions can be critiqued and, possibly duplicated.
I don't have any wedge-head engines...almost everything I am working on is a semi-hemi design...and, one pent-roof design. In both of those cases, I can ask myself: what are the design goals? In the hemi design, it's swirl...the pent-roof, it's tumble. Both are age-old methods of accomplishing the numerous (and, sometimes conflicting) goals of internal combustion. It's not JUST turbulence...it's also the ability to charge the system - to evacuate the system - and, to make reasonable power in between. Compromising any of this is counter to MY goals...and, I can argue that grooves will affect most of those things...certain designs will be affected more than others.
In the past few days, out of curiosity, I've done a lot of googling on the issue. I still can't find anyone who has done controlled before/after empirical testing. Even Somender-Singh has not done **good** controlled testing.

 

[Ben B (Bengineer)]

Re: (The Quinner)

I agree Quinner. I am a mechanical engineer that owned watercooled VWs for 25 years. The internet is full of info that is skewed or incomplete with no scientific testing. Seat of pants and it sounds better. Again not knockning the combusion chamber grooves. You are in the right path. About 10 years ago a company (BMVW?)working with BMW car engines, had an article in European car magazine about this subject. I don't remember there name, but will find it in my old magazines and post. They lathe cut grooves on the back side of the intake valves and also cnc large deap arching grooves in the combustion chanmber...not two small grooves. The results were documented and impressive. Emmisions lower, power was up, detination down, cooler running, etc. I will try and find the article..
I have tried many things over the years, some worked for certain things.
The Tornado (bent sheet metal like a vortex in the air induction tube between the air sensor and the throttle body) gave better throttle resonse (torque) and gas mileage 2.0 mpg ave. but worse full throttle power.
Raising the compression improves almost every engine response, including ping/detination. power, thermal efficiency, fuel eff., lower emissions (except nitrogen oxides if temps soar).
Water/alcohol injection works well for this (not the cheap simple kind working only off engine vacuum (little vacuum at full throttle), but the high pressure type.
I have found a small simple pulse valve (on intake manifold)(Ecotek) from England that works well for part throttle (idle is unaffected, good idle and emmisions)and full throttle unaffected. 1.5 mpg increase and better part throttle response, same idle and full throttle.
MSD ignition helped. Multiple sparks at low rpm...idle emissions dropped drastically, rev limit (for safety, adjustable timing from the dash (with a module), crisper throttle response, better full throttle. Gas mileage + 1.5 mpg. tested

 

[Ben B (Bengineer)]

Re: (Ben B (Bengineer))

checking in

 

[wclark]

Re: (The Quinner)

In otherwords you have nothing to contribute but your personal doubt.
By the way, I am not defensive. If someone wants to carefully isolate this variable from all others and conduct controlled tests of the effect, if any, more power to them. I would be happy to see the results.
Lacking that, you wait, I will act.

 

[Clint VW VW wood]

so you're saying that since no one has conducted 100% correct scientific experiments that even if people say there is a gain there isnt? I guess I just dont understand what you guys are arguing about.. people that have used the grooves have reported back the changes, and many people have used the grooves. So if all these people have used them in success why do you have to be so skepticle? Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck.. it's a duck
edit:
I asked my cousin, he said it was a duck too