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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Bought my daughter a 2001 New Beetle as she was graduating and entering the work force. Ran great, till it didn’t. Hasn’t started in a month and I’m racking my brain. Does anyone have access to the pin out for the ECM plugs? I’ve already done a lot of work troubleshooting and replacing parts that are related to ignition. The fuel injectors are receiving 13.4V from the ignition switch. The other lead is carrying 3.4V which is not correct. I need to isolate all input sensors to the ECM and check the input but have nothing to go by and can’t seem to find it. Desperate for assistance!
 

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Well, the first thing; would be to scan for trouble codes and post any you find here, preferably with a VW specific scan tool, like VCDS by Ross Tech, OBDeleven or the many, "VAG" type scanners on amazon.

Once, we see the trouble codes you are getting; we can try to guide you, on some troubleshooting steps, to try to find the source of the problem.

For service manuals and wiring diagrams; check out this site:


For free downloadable service manuals; check here:

 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, the first thing; would be to scan for trouble codes and post any you find here, preferably with a VW specific scan tool, like VCDS by Ross Tech, OBDeleven or the many, "VAG" type scanners on amazon.

Once, we see the trouble codes you are getting; we can try to guide you, on some troubleshooting steps, to try to find the source of the problem.

For service manuals and wiring diagrams; check out this site:


For free downloadable service manuals; check here:

Thanks. The only codes were MAF sensor and catalytic converter. Those were addressed and it hasn’t started so there are no new codes. I can recount everything that’s happened and what’s been done so far. From all I’ve read it’s pointing to the ECM, but I need to verify the inputs are correct. Don’t want to replace the ECM if it’s a $40 sensor. I will post tomorrow, in detail, how it’s behaved.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok, we can go from there, thanks.
The car ran well for a month. My daughter drove it to work and it wouldn’t start. I opened the air intake and shot it with started fluid and it fired and ran for a few minutes. Presented as lack of fuel. I replaced the fuel filter. I had read the MAF sensor could cause it not to start so I cleaned the sensor. Started right up and ran well for a week.

Then it rained, and wouldn’t start again. Being old school, I thought cap and rotor, but it has coil over plugs. So I replaced them along with the air filter and temperature sensor, which had also shown a code. Again it ran for a few days, then it rained and wouldn’t start. I wasn’t aware to put grease on the coil so I bought the dielectric grease and pulled each coil, used a hair dryer to dry the plug and coil and reassembled with grease. Started up fine. She drove it around the block which is four miles out here. Ran good. She went to dress for work and 20 minutes later I tried to start it and it would fire and die. Then just turn over.

I’m thinking no fuel, so I pulled the hoses off the injector rail and put it in a jar and turned it over...no fuel. Checked voltage at the fuel pump, 12.4V. Did this three times, no fuel. Went to check prices on a fuel pump. Came back and tried it again. This time it filled the jar in no time. Repeated three times. Went and got a fuel pressure gauge and stethoscope. The gauge only went to 14psi and the pump should put out 29psi but it buried the gauge repeatedly. Listened to the injectors and could clearly hear them clicking. I also tested the solenoids and all were at 12.4ohms.

I tried starter fluid again as I was told the timing is FU and could destroy the engine. I didn’t think so. It fired but wouldn’t run. Listened to the injectors again and this time heard nothing. I noticed that the fuel hose on the injector rail was being pushed back on the tube. Like the pressure was there but because the injectors weren’t firing, the pressure was too great and was trying to blow the hose off of the tube.

I started at the battery with my meter. The battery was getting low, 11V, so I jumped it. Had 13.6V. I checked the circuit through the ignition switch, as the 12V supply to the injectors comes right from the ignition switch. In the ON position I had 13.3V, in the START position it dropped to 10.7V. The other wire to the injector comes from the ECU, it tests at 3.4 V. The same at all four injectors. I’ve read that this should be .1V. Anything above that indicates a possible sensor or ground problem. I’ve checked all fuses related to the start circuit and visually checked and tested the major grounds to the battery.

At this point the dash is half disassembled so I could get to the ECM. The ground right in front of the ECM tests good to the battery. The ECM connectors have a lot of wires so I’m looking for the pin out to check the inputs to the ECM and verify the sensors are working.

The way it acts it’s like the ECM is intermittently sending the correct signal to the fuel pump and injectors. Maybe someone has experience with this type of problem? Any help would be greatly appreciated as I’m stuck and have to get this car running so my daughter can get to work. I’m disabled so the entire mess is a major struggle!
 

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If you are dealing with no power to the fuel pump and other fuel system related components, intermittently; a very common failure is the fuel pump relay number 409. These relays are particularly unique failure issue; you MUST use only OEM relays made by Stribel: STRIBEL or genuine VW/Stribel part, Stribel is the oem supplier for VW.

Do not use poor quality aftermarket fuel pump relays; they do not work correctly, this website is filled with people using the aftermarket cheaper versions, available at most auto parts stores, causing drivability problems.

To access the #409 relay; remove the kick panel under the drivers side dash torx screws, location is close to where you knees are, when sitting in the drivers seat and your will see the fuse box and relay panel.


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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
If you are dealing with no power to the fuel pump and other fuel system related components, intermittently; a very common failure is the fuel pump relay number 409. These relays are particularly unique failure issue; you MUST use only OEM relays made by Stribel: STRIBEL or genuine VW/Stribel part, Stribel is the oem supplier for VW.

Do not use poor quality aftermarket fuel pump relays; they do not work correctly, this website is filled with people using the aftermarket cheaper versions, available at most auto parts stores, causing drivability problems.

To access the #409 relay; remove the kick panel under the drivers side dash torx screws, location is close to where you knees are, when sitting in the drivers seat and your will see the fuse box and relay panel.


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I have replaced the relay as the switch contact pins were burnt. Not sure of the brand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Stick with vw oem Stribel; through experience, we have found these are the only ones that work correctly.


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I appreciate your input but that isn’t helping me much. I just spent $50 on a Duralast relay. While I can appreciate you get what you pay for, I’m a retired engineer who managed maintenance departments for twenty years, I can’t see dropping another $90 on another relay. Probably will once the car is running again but I have to believe that this new relay has at least 100 cycles in it. I’ve confirmed that it is energizing and the contact is sending power to the fuel pump and fuse 32 which delivers 12V to the fuel injectors. Of the sensors that are inputs in an EFI system, are their any that typically fail more than others?
 

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A trick i did with my original vw/Stribel 409 relay, when having a no start condition and a long list of short to ground codes, was pull it off, remove the plastic cover off and clean it. I removed the pivoting contact portion, cleaned and polished the contacts that had carbon deposits on them, along with the terminals. Then finished it off by spraying everything with CRC 05103 QD Electronic Cleaner or you could, just dunk it into some 91% isopropyl alcohol. After drying out or blowing off with compressed air; reinstall in the fuse block.

After that relay cleaning, the codes went away and the engine started right up fine, this was a successful temporary fix, until my new Stribel oem relay came in, from a special order. After installing the new one; i keep the old on in the glove box as a spare.

For some reason, in the past, we have had the aftermarket relays, not work correctly; the circuit boards seemed to be a different design and caused problems. One strange characteristic, was the engine would start but if you opened the door, it would kill the engine! Then, sometimes, it would just not start at all or cause odd drivability problems.

As a process of elimination, you might try cleaning your original vw Stribel oem #409 relay, reinstall it and see if this helps the problem.

Along with that, what brand coil packs, coolant temp sensor, etc; did you install, again, oem are recommended.

A dying fuel pump, is another possibility; typically you will get a lean trouble code and fuel pressure problems, residual pressure can be a problem with the check valve getting stuck being a issue, indicated by going to zero psi, after cranking.

After your fuel pump relay replacement; are there any more trouble codes and is the fuel pressure in spec? What scan tool; are you using and can it view live data? I'm assuming, your engine; is the 1.8T? Give us the specifics on your new beetle: year (2001), model, engine, trans etc. Thanks.


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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
A trick i did with my original vw/Stribel 409 relay, when having a no start condition and a long list of short to ground codes, was pull it off, remove the plastic cover off and clean it. I removed the pivoting contact portion, cleaned and polished the contacts that had carbon deposits on them, along with the terminals. Then finished it off by spraying everything with CRC 05103 QD Electronic Cleaner or you could, just dunk it into some 91% isopropyl alcohol. After drying out or blowing off with compressed air; reinstall in the fuse block.

After that relay cleaning, the codes went away and the engine started right up fine, this was a successful temporary fix, until my new Stribel oem relay came in, from a special order. After installing the new one; i keep the old on in the glove box as a spare.

For some reason, in the past, we have had the aftermarket relays, not work correctly; the circuit boards seemed to be a different design and caused problems. One strange characteristic, was the engine would start but if you opened the door, it would kill the engine! Then, sometimes, it would just not start at all or cause odd drivability problems.

As a process of elimination, you might try cleaning your original vw Stribel oem #409 relay, reinstall it and see if this helps the problem.

Along with that, what brand coil packs, coolant temp sensor, etc; did you install, again, oem are recommended.

A dying fuel pump, is another possibility; typically you will get a lean trouble code and fuel pressure problems, residual pressure can be a problem with the check valve getting stuck being a issue, indicated by going to zero psi, after cranking.

After your fuel pump relay replacement; are there any more trouble codes and is the fuel pressure in spec? What scan tool; are you using and can it view live data? I'm assuming, your engine; is the 1.8T? Give us the specifics on your new beetle: year (2001), model, engine, trans etc. Thanks.


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By chance I still had the relay. Cleaned it. Cleaned the pins for the contact for the fuel pump with emery cloth, as they appeared burned. Made no difference. It’s a 2001 New Beetle, 1.8T, code AWV. The parts I’ve put on were not OEM. I’m going to attempt to upload some pics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The battery is holding 11.88V but I’m jumping it as it starts to fade when cranking. Starting at the battery, you can see that through the 409 relay to the fuel pump and fuel injectors there is 13.4-13.6v in the ON position. When cranking there’s 10.7v. The last schematic shows the fuel injectors. With the car off and key removed, there’s 6.0v present on the hot side. In the ON position there’s 13.3v and when cranking there’s 10.7v. The common side carries 3.4-3.6v constantly. These are simple solenoids and ring at 12.6 ohms. The common signal comes from the ECM. The original codes were P0420, P0116 and P0102. The two were addressed. I rented a scanner from autozone and have no clue what kind it was. The last time I checked it before returning the scanner, the only code was the converter. The car hasn’t started since so I’m assuming that’s why. I’ve read that the sensors need to be tested for voltage drop and it shouldn’t be more than .1v, but I lack a pin out to test the sensors at the ECM. The common side of the fuel injector plug shouldn’t be carrying 3.4v, I’m guessing that indicates a short. Surely someone has dealt with this scenario before...I hope.
 

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I cannot speak directly to your voltage readings but your battery does seem lower then normal, this can cause a number of issues and kick on things like the immobilizer. I would start with the basics; get the battery fully charged and here are links for checking, fuel pressure in spec, ignition spark at the spark plugs, fuel injectors, etc.

Factory level VW service manuals; may provide you with better info then your Haynes or Chilton that your wiring schematic uploads seem to be from. Here are some links, to a online free service manual; for testing electrical issues and components like the fuel injectors, sensors, etc.

Here is the service manual online; for the 2001 New Beetle with the 1.8T engine code AWV:


fuel pressure testing:


injector testing:


coil pack testing:


For better schematics, pinout, etc.; you might consider paying for the official "eRWin" service manual access, for one day, download them in .pdf format on your hard drive or subscribe to a live searchable online service manual provider like ALLDATA or Mitchell1.


There are some free manuals here; which you might check, to see, if they are for you car.

 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I cannot speak directly to your voltage readings but your battery does seem lower then normal, this can cause a number of issues and kick on things like the immobilizer. I would start with the basics; get the battery fully charged and here are links for checking, fuel pressure in spec, ignition spark at the spark plugs, fuel injectors, etc.

Factory level VW service manuals; may provide you with better info then your Haynes or Chilton that your wiring schematic uploads seem to be from. Here are some links, to a online free service manual; for testing electrical issues and components like the fuel injectors, sensors, etc.

Here is the service manual online; for the 2001 New Beetle with the 1.8T engine code AWV:


fuel pressure testing:


injector testing:


coil pack testing:


For better schematics, pinout, etc.; you might consider paying for the official "eRWin" service manual access, for one day, download them in .pdf format on your hard drive or subscribe to a live searchable online service manual provider like ALLDATA or Mitchell1.


There are some free manuals here; which you might check, to see, if they are for you car.

Thanks, I’ll check. This is what I’m looking to do.
103988
 
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