specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch?
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Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (scrumshy)
Heel toe driving, at least to my understanding, is when you operate both the brake and gas with the same foot. So as you slow down, you blip the throttle, to bring the engine's RPMS up high enough to match the speed of the transmission when downshifting. It's to avoid the "jerk" you feel when you let the clutch out while downshifting. During extreme cornering, that little "jerK" when the clutch is let out can be enough to make you lose traction. It also makes the shift smoother, and saves some wear on the synchromesh.
Double-clutching is part of the procedure. Say you're in 4th gear doing... ehh, 80, and you're coming up on a hard corner that you can take at 60... You depress the clutch, let it out about halfway or so in Netural, blip the throttle, push the clutch in, and set it to 3rd. This again matches the speed so the shift is smoother. You can do it while upshifting as well, except you don't blip the throttle, as in this case, you're trying to slow down things, as you're going into a higher gear. So you'd just go 3, clutch in, N clutch out, clutchin in, 4th, clutch out....
I tell you, it's 32470673457892347 times easier to explain in person or by demonstration...
Heel toe driving, at least to my understanding, is when you operate both the brake and gas with the same foot. So as you slow down, you blip the throttle, to bring the engine's RPMS up high enough to match the speed of the transmission when downshifting. It's to avoid the "jerk" you feel when you let the clutch out while downshifting. During extreme cornering, that little "jerK" when the clutch is let out can be enough to make you lose traction. It also makes the shift smoother, and saves some wear on the synchromesh.
Double-clutching is part of the procedure. Say you're in 4th gear doing... ehh, 80, and you're coming up on a hard corner that you can take at 60... You depress the clutch, let it out about halfway or so in Netural, blip the throttle, push the clutch in, and set it to 3rd. This again matches the speed so the shift is smoother. You can do it while upshifting as well, except you don't blip the throttle, as in this case, you're trying to slow down things, as you're going into a higher gear. So you'd just go 3, clutch in, N clutch out, clutchin in, 4th, clutch out....
I tell you, it's 32470673457892347 times easier to explain in person or by demonstration...
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (Big-GTI-Guy)
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quote:[HR][/HR]During extreme cornering, that little "jerK" when the clutch is let out can be enough to make you lose traction. It also makes the shift smoother, and saves some wear on the synchromesh.[HR][/HR]
In RWD cars, that little "jerk" can have the same effect as pulling the ebrake. Ay! Que miedo!
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (RJetta8V)
Double clutching is also a wasted effort on any modern car with synchros, which handle allof that for you.
heel-toe is still very useful though. I lost a bimmer because of a rough shift during a a medium turn in the rain, the rearend of the E30 broke loose as the transition from 5th to 3rd was a little much, practically locking up the rear wheels and sending them out next to me. If anyone's ever heard of the lomcevak in airplanes, I did it in a Bimmer! lol
Double clutching is also a wasted effort on any modern car with synchros, which handle allof that for you.
heel-toe is still very useful though. I lost a bimmer because of a rough shift during a a medium turn in the rain, the rearend of the E30 broke loose as the transition from 5th to 3rd was a little much, practically locking up the rear wheels and sending them out next to me. If anyone's ever heard of the lomcevak in airplanes, I did it in a Bimmer! lol
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (PsyberVW)
quote:[HR][/HR]Double clutching is also a wasted effort on any modern car with synchros, which handle allof that for you.[HR][/HR]
Generarlly, yes, but not in all cases. If you are dropping several gears, or dropping into first gear for a particularly tight corner, double-clutching in even a modern tranny will not only make the shift smoother, but also save the synchros. It is a lot to ask the synchros to match the gear speeds in situations like that. Just try shifting into first gear in your car while moving without double clutching - it makes it a lot tougher....
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Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (PsyberVW)
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obin
quote:[HR][/HR]Double clutching is also a wasted effort on any modern car with synchros, which handle allof that for you.
heel-toe is still very useful though. I lost a bimmer because of a rough shift during a a medium turn in the rain, the rearend of the E30 broke loose as the transition from 5th to 3rd was a little much, practically locking up the rear wheels and sending them out next to me. If anyone's ever heard of the lomcevak in airplanes, I did it in a Bimmer! lol[HR][/HR]
double-clutching is somethimes necessary in cars that have unsynchronized first gears... like all the cars i own
heel-toe is still very useful though. I lost a bimmer because of a rough shift during a a medium turn in the rain, the rearend of the E30 broke loose as the transition from 5th to 3rd was a little much, practically locking up the rear wheels and sending them out next to me. If anyone's ever heard of the lomcevak in airplanes, I did it in a Bimmer! lol[HR][/HR]
obin
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Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (scrumshy)
Speaking of modern transmissions and synchros... is the double clutch during a heel toe even nessesary??
for example going from 4 to 3 like posted above...
clutch in -> N -> clutch out -> clutch in (Rev Match Here) -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Why not
Clutch in -> 3rd -> Hold Clutch in (Rev Match here) -> Clutch Out ->
Since your basically in N when you have the clutch in, what's the point of the double clutch inbetween N and 3rd? I've tried the technique both ways, and I can't see the difference except that I think cutting out the double clutch to neutral seems to be faster... I can control revs while the clutch is in and then just slide my foot over off the brake and back full on the gas...
Speaking of modern transmissions and synchros... is the double clutch during a heel toe even nessesary??
for example going from 4 to 3 like posted above...
clutch in -> N -> clutch out -> clutch in (Rev Match Here) -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Why not
Clutch in -> 3rd -> Hold Clutch in (Rev Match here) -> Clutch Out ->
Since your basically in N when you have the clutch in, what's the point of the double clutch inbetween N and 3rd? I've tried the technique both ways, and I can't see the difference except that I think cutting out the double clutch to neutral seems to be faster... I can control revs while the clutch is in and then just slide my foot over off the brake and back full on the gas...
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (Volkscience)
Which part of the foot does everyone use for the gas? I tend to use the heel for the brake, and toe for the gas.
quote:[HR][/HR]Speaking of modern transmissions and synchros... is the double clutch during a heel toe even nessesary??
for example going from 4 to 3 like posted above...
clutch in -> N -> clutch out -> clutch in (Rev Match Here) -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Why not
Clutch in -> 3rd -> Hold Clutch in (Rev Match here) -> Clutch Out ->
Since your basically in N when you have the clutch in, what's the point of the double clutch inbetween N and 3rd? I've tried the technique both ways, and I can't see the difference except that I think cutting out the double clutch to neutral seems to be faster... I can control revs while the clutch is in and then just slide my foot over off the brake and back full on the gas...[HR][/HR]
I should really be leaving this reply to someone who knows what they're talking about, but it seems to me that the shaft between clutch and the transmission would not be spinning in this case. That said, I still do it your way too.for example going from 4 to 3 like posted above...
clutch in -> N -> clutch out -> clutch in (Rev Match Here) -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Why not
Clutch in -> 3rd -> Hold Clutch in (Rev Match here) -> Clutch Out ->
Since your basically in N when you have the clutch in, what's the point of the double clutch inbetween N and 3rd? I've tried the technique both ways, and I can't see the difference except that I think cutting out the double clutch to neutral seems to be faster... I can control revs while the clutch is in and then just slide my foot over off the brake and back full on the gas...[HR][/HR]
Which part of the foot does everyone use for the gas? I tend to use the heel for the brake, and toe for the gas.
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (Volkscience)
4th - clutch in -> N -> clutch out - (Rev Match Here) > clutch in -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Seems a lot easier to me to work both feet in symphony in/out than keep the left down and the right moving.
quote:[HR][/HR]Speaking of modern transmissions and synchros... is the double clutch during a heel toe even nessesary??
for example going from 4 to 3 like posted above...
clutch in -> N -> clutch out -> clutch in (Rev Match Here) -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Why not
Clutch in -> 3rd -> Hold Clutch in (Rev Match here) -> Clutch Out ->
Since your basically in N when you have the clutch in, what's the point of the double clutch inbetween N and 3rd? I've tried the technique both ways, and I can't see the difference except that I think cutting out the double clutch to neutral seems to be faster... I can control revs while the clutch is in and then just slide my foot over off the brake and back full on the gas...
[HR][/HR]
correction -for example going from 4 to 3 like posted above...
clutch in -> N -> clutch out -> clutch in (Rev Match Here) -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Why not
Clutch in -> 3rd -> Hold Clutch in (Rev Match here) -> Clutch Out ->
Since your basically in N when you have the clutch in, what's the point of the double clutch inbetween N and 3rd? I've tried the technique both ways, and I can't see the difference except that I think cutting out the double clutch to neutral seems to be faster... I can control revs while the clutch is in and then just slide my foot over off the brake and back full on the gas...
[HR][/HR]
4th - clutch in -> N -> clutch out - (Rev Match Here) > clutch in -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Seems a lot easier to me to work both feet in symphony in/out than keep the left down and the right moving.
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (BananaCo)
i find the same to be true of my 93 civic... the gas pedal is recessed to far compared to the brake to do it.
the "correct" way is toe on the brake, and heel on the gas, i believe, since it's easier to control braking w/ the toe than the heel.
i find the same to be true of my 93 civic... the gas pedal is recessed to far compared to the brake to do it.
the "correct" way is toe on the brake, and heel on the gas, i believe, since it's easier to control braking w/ the toe than the heel.
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4,214 Posts
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (nsadhal)
quote:[HR][/HR]the "correct" way is toe on the brake, and heel on the gas, i believe, since it's easier to control braking w/ the toe than the heel. [HR][/HR]
The pedals in the Fox are close enough to use the side of my foot to brake, and the other side to rev.Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (Bimmer)
4th -> clutch in -> rev match while shifting to 3rd -> clutch out
This is essentially what I do in a heel-toe downshift without the brake. It saves a little bit of time and accomplishes the same thing, i.e., when you pop the clutch out in the lower gear, your engine RPMs are already up to speed.
quote:[HR][/HR]4th - clutch in -> N -> clutch out - (Rev Match Here) > clutch in -> 3rd -> Clutch out
Seems a lot easier to me to work both feet in symphony in/out than keep the left down and the right moving.[HR][/HR]
Right, this is the tried-and-true double-clutch. But, as Volkscience mentioned, it's just as good to rev-match on downshifts by cutting out the intermediary clutch release with:Seems a lot easier to me to work both feet in symphony in/out than keep the left down and the right moving.[HR][/HR]
4th -> clutch in -> rev match while shifting to 3rd -> clutch out
This is essentially what I do in a heel-toe downshift without the brake. It saves a little bit of time and accomplishes the same thing, i.e., when you pop the clutch out in the lower gear, your engine RPMs are already up to speed.
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Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (BananaCo)
my 97 is a bizatch to heel and to in. The gas pedal is about an inch and a half below the brake, so if you're pushing the gas, it is shizzlingly hard to heel the brake.
my 97 is a bizatch to heel and to in. The gas pedal is about an inch and a half below the brake, so if you're pushing the gas, it is shizzlingly hard to heel the brake.
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (mad8vskillz)
so...anyone else???
anyone else had success heel toeing in MKIVs???
quote:[HR][/HR]my 97 is a bizatch to heel and to in. The gas pedal is about an inch and a half below the brake, so if you're pushing the gas, it is shizzlingly hard to heel the brake.[HR][/HR]
Same scenario with me!!!!so...anyone else???
anyone else had success heel toeing in MKIVs???
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (BananaCo)
I use my toes and the ball of my foot on the brake, and the side of my foot on the gas. I heel toe with out even thinking about it, its like second nature now and i find it wierd when other ppl dont do it, or if i conciously dont do it.
I use my toes and the ball of my foot on the brake, and the side of my foot on the gas. I heel toe with out even thinking about it, its like second nature now and i find it wierd when other ppl dont do it, or if i conciously dont do it.
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (alphaDUB)
I pretty much mastered both aforementioned techniques in my previously owned 1991 Acura Integra (GS), yet irrelevant but for conversation sake has anyone ever severely over-reved their engine or an engine in general? I was headed down a steppe pass in my late (G2) Integra motoring at approximately 130 mph or so I figure, when I decide to exit the following off ramp, I accidentally went from 5-2!!! the sound was horrendous, I must have grinded harder than I had when first driving a manual trans, the tach needle scored the small peg at the other end of the dial I thought the engine would explode, yet to my knowledge it never did any harm drove another 40k on that car before trading it trouble free?? not that I ever want to try it again but has anyone done this accidentally in a MKIV, just interested as to how tough the drive train is?
-Ryan
I pretty much mastered both aforementioned techniques in my previously owned 1991 Acura Integra (GS), yet irrelevant but for conversation sake has anyone ever severely over-reved their engine or an engine in general? I was headed down a steppe pass in my late (G2) Integra motoring at approximately 130 mph or so I figure, when I decide to exit the following off ramp, I accidentally went from 5-2!!! the sound was horrendous, I must have grinded harder than I had when first driving a manual trans, the tach needle scored the small peg at the other end of the dial I thought the engine would explode, yet to my knowledge it never did any harm drove another 40k on that car before trading it trouble free?? not that I ever want to try it again but has anyone done this accidentally in a MKIV, just interested as to how tough the drive train is?
-Ryan
Re: specialty clutching. heel toe? double clutch? (MK4ryan)
Now in double clutching the car is in neutral, how is the car loosing enough speed to shift down, when the car is in neutral? I never heard anythign about pressing the brake. If I have it in 5th and I pop my car into neutral going 60 its not going to be at shifting into 4th speed for a long time without making the car "jerk".... I am so lost!!!
Again let me quote "There is no such things as stupid questions, only stupid people"
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(Talking about myself)
[Modified by Euro Dude, 11:07 PM 12-1-2001]
Now in double clutching the car is in neutral, how is the car loosing enough speed to shift down, when the car is in neutral? I never heard anythign about pressing the brake. If I have it in 5th and I pop my car into neutral going 60 its not going to be at shifting into 4th speed for a long time without making the car "jerk".... I am so lost!!!
Again let me quote "There is no such things as stupid questions, only stupid people"
[Modified by Euro Dude, 11:07 PM 12-1-2001]
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