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Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys )

1988 Views 19 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  Look Stock
Ok here is the thing... I tried to gather as much info as I could on this before I posted this, so all of you are welcomed to correct me or add you experience if it differs from mine. Also the fact that it has only been half a day since I Installed my new N75, [or solenoid (pt # 058 906 283 F) as they call it here in the dealership where I bought it] I will keep you guys updated if anything changes. Oh and another disclaimer... lol... and that is excuse my English please as English is my second language.
First of all before we go any further on this let me tell you that all this N75 adjustment is a voodoo science and it's really in the shade of gray. If you try to adjust your valve, you WILL break it, as it is not designed for adjustment. So you will have to dish out for the new one unless you have a friend that works for the stealership. The new valve cost me $98 tax included and will, give or take a little, cost you about the same. Also the only mods I am running now are Upsolute V5, K&N and Baily DV.
Well Ok here it is Yesterday I got tired of surging and I realized after some research that it is not by any means Upsolutes fault. It is in fact wastegate control settings fault that slightly differs from car to car. This slightly different setting from car to car is what causes some car to surge and some not. I also believe that this settings is what makes some motor a "freak" motor and runs a little stronger as it's wastegate settings are on the borderline of "normal"
I try adjusting the N75 as some here tried, following the tips from previous posts on vortex. Needless to say I messed up the valve settings thus cause my wastegate to perform out of factory specs, which in my case caused loss of power. In fact my car behaved like my old car (stock 2001 1.8T) That probably means that I was running about .5 bar boost, as I my dv was not as loud as it was before. Unfortunately I don't have the VAG-COM (jet...lol... as I see more and more need for this little tool) so I didn't log 002 block, and could not see if my car threw any trouble codes. What I understand unless you unplug it you won't see ant DTC's. Well I ordered the new one right away after I spoke to Slvrbllt (really cool and knowledgeable guy on this matter). It was in waiting for me the next day so I installed the new one and voila... surging solved.
This proves couple of things:
1) This surging on 2002 AWP is NOT Upsolutes fault. Which I would like to put as much emphasis because I don't want all these new guys with 2002 Jettas and GTI's to rule out Upsolute because they have read some disinformation on vortex.
2)Wastegate settings slightly differ in side of factory parameters which is not that critical on the stock car but as we chip our cars we can push those factory wastegate settings right over the edge so ECU starts to compensate for that (in my case ECU was quickly opening and closing the wastegate to control the overboost so I had this off and on surging from 3000-4000 rpm's that felt like rocking in my car)
3) Do not mess with N75 if you don't want/can't afford, to replace it with the new part because as soon as you turn that screw the settings inside change so you cannot (unless you are really lucky) put it where it was even if you mark the original position.
4) Solution to surging, that many of you are experiencing with 2002 AWP's, is replacing N75 with the new one but there is no guarantee that the new valve will not make you surge again because they are pre-set in the factory and they vary in between those factory parameters.
Good luck guys with this. Let me know how it went if for you and sorry about the novel length of this post but I felt a need to clear this up.
G
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif THANKS BRO!!!
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (00BORAGLX)

That's good to hear -- too bad there is no easy fix! If I owned a 2002, I'd hate to buy a new n75 only to have it be a "bad" one too!
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (00BORAGLX)

Hey 00BORAGLX no problem I tryed to talk to you about it yestarday but my damn slow connection is hell when it comes to vortex messanger.
Glad if i helped a little.
G
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

The easy fix is to go to Version 6, thanks for the information G-Funk and the confidence.
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (Valois)

True...valois true ... lol... but I like to do things the hard way

On the serious note the only reason I didn't want to go with version 6 is cause I heard it is a little weaker. I know I wouldn't even feel the difference but I am kind of anal when it comes to power

I want all the pain I can take.

take care
G
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (Jorgeaz)

Is there any other alternative? Can aftermarket parts be used as opposed to the 'temperamental' N75 to solve the problem?
Please excuse my ignorance.
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

quote:[HR][/HR]True...valois true ... lol... but I like to do things the hard way

On the serious note the only reason I didn't want to go with version 6 is cause I heard it is a little weaker. I know I wouldn't even feel the difference but I am kind of anal when it comes to power

I want all the pain I can take.

take care
G[HR][/HR]​
G, you need to know that version 6 is not weaker, it just has a slightly different boost request curve. What you actually get at the wheels will be the same.
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (jim wilson)

So do those of us who just got V5 need to get V6? G- If the answer to this is yes, do you wanna ride over to Jim's together?
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (SlvrBllt)

I beg to differ in a couple of aspects. The wastegate is conrolled by the ECU which should not be adjusted manually, (Ask Billy, he blew a turbo doing that).
With that being said, the chip tuners have to "trick" the wastegate into staying open or shut longer depending on the engine code.
I believe very strongly that the surging problem occurs when a new engine code is released and the tuner did not have enough information on the ECU programming to make the car run "smooth". Hence that is why Upsolute version 6 has no surging and version 5 does.
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (SlvrBllt)

G-Funk:- I thought you had version 6 ?
Anyway, I got UP'ed on Monday and did some 115 & 120 blocks that evening.
I have pltted these against my stock info as well as G-Funk's 115 & 120 info which he posted a week or so ago. Shows you how some cars act different as well as the fact that your car will also try and adapt as much as it can over time so will get better to a point. Depending on what point you reach will, I guess, depend on how much surging you have, and whether you go to v6





I will be doing some more this weekend to see if anything is changed. I LOVE the power increase, just surges in 3rd gear and above from about 2800-4200rpm.
There is also a good explanation of what the N75 valve does from "John s" in the post below
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=236586


[Modified by UKAUSSI, 2:26 PM 2-7-2002]
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (Digitalcandy)

quote:[HR][/HR]I beg to differ in a couple of aspects. The wastegate is conrolled by the ECU which should not be adjusted manually, (Ask Billy, he blew a turbo doing that)[HR][/HR]​
Um....We are talking about the N75 valve, not the wastegate actuator rod.
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (SlvrBllt)

Would an N75 valve from a 225TT work, or even be compatible ?
As the 225TT uses a larger turbo does it run on the same std max boost (12psi) or is it higher ? If higher then maybe it's N75 would work (if compatible)
What does APR & ATP use on their Stage III kits ?
Lots of questions to ponder
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

Jorgeaz: Sorry man don't know as I never tried to mess with it on my old aww. I believe the only way to find out is to buy yourself a new one and swap it.
highbpm:No need for aftermarket part here. Oem is fine. You really should not change the parameters of the wastegate unless you want to keep buying new N75's.

Jim Wilson: Thanks man I guess another one of those false informations that circle the boards although I got this info off of Upsolute forum from Alex I think. But anyhow that is awesome to know. So what Slvrbllt said
o we need to switch to V6 than, even if we are currently ok with v5
Slvrbllt: Sure if we need to I am down for rolling together. Oh by the way I think my friend has found a really cheap Dyno here in orlando so when I get some more info I'll let you know how much is it. I told him your buddy chargs 50 bucks for 2 runs which is really cheap and my friend said that is way more than this other dyno here, so I'll keep my hopes up.
Digitalcandy: Don't worry just don't touch that wastgate actuator rod and you'll be fine
I am actually advocating NOT to manualy ajust the settings just simply replace the N75 valve and most likely will be within fact specs so you won't surge.
UKAUSSI: Naah I have V5 and that is awesome job on those graphs I can't wait to get my hands on VAG-COM. But anyhow Those graphs kind a prove what I wrote up on top. My old factory N75 settings did make my engine a "freak" engine as I show couple of horses more as well as boost was a little higher. Unless of course the fact that I have baily DV makes me hold boost longer which very well might be the case. We won't know the answer till I get my vag-com so i will switch back the stock dv and do some testing. Do you plan on going with the aftermarket DV? It would be very interesting to do 120 block again with this new N75 i put on I bet you it would be a different graph or boost log for that matter. I bet I got rid of that sudden drop in boost around 5500 rpm's. we will see as i will get me a Vag-com soon. Also I will dyno it soon just to make sure I am getting all of the ponies to the ground as I should.
Thanks guys for all your help.
G
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

I am getting upgraded to v6 tomorrow so will see what difference that makes. I don't really want to go with an aftermarket DV unless it is necessary as I am limiting myself to "stealth" mods for now.
Will post more graphs when I have them.
I should also have an IBM Thinkpad 600 (PII 233) for sale in about a month but have to reformat it first and install W2K. Also, previous owner left it in the sun so painted surface is a little crackled but all works great. Probably $250. Ideal for VAG-COM
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

ok, here's a question. I have an '01 AWW that experiences surging and it's getting on my last nerve.
if i wanted to get a new n75 valve should i get a 2002 AWP one because they might be set to hold more boost from the factory? or should i just go ahead and get one for the '01 AWW? my thinking is if they are set to use more boost then maybe there would be less chance of the factory settings being far enough out of spec to cause the surging...
thanks in advance,
James
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (Boosted'01PhillyWolf)

Hey James you are probably stepping now, where no one has been before (meaning swaping aww N75 to AWP one) so if you have the time and the money do some testing for all of us and find out if that works go ahead numerous vortexers with the similar problem will be grateful to you .
On the other hand if you don't have time or the resources I would go with aww N75 plus the latest version of you chiptuner's chip (if you haven't already), as I believe it is up to the chip tuner to "trick" the wastegate settings into orkig corectly within the factory N75 settings. You probably have one of those "freak" N75 settings which appears to run a little stronger but it causes that damn of and on surging that went on my nerves too, and I believe it would make your 1/4 mile runs a little slower.
Hope my opinion helped
Good luck
G
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

got any pics of the valve and where it is on the engine??? how easy is it to install..?
Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (Boosted'01PhillyWolf)

I see you have Aftermarket DV so the N75 valve replacement is the same level of ease/difficulty. All you have to do (just like in the DV case) is to remove 3 stock clamps and after swaping the n75 replace them with the one that you bought (autozone or something ) I even didn't replace the black stock clamp IO just eased it a little so I culd pull the old N75 out and squese in the new one and than tighten it back, but you can replace it if you want
The only problem you might have is to remove the stock clamps as however replaced the DV knows what I am talking about. They sometimes come a little stubborn and need a little convincing from a wire cutters +screwdriver combo to let go.

Really easy trust me.
As for the pictures someone already posted some pictures on the boards I will try to find some for you.
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Re: Surging problem solved(for all you 2002 AWP Upsolute guys ) (G-Funk)

Can this N75 valve go bad say after 40,000 miles ?? my AWD engine stumbles/ bucks not really surging. I have already replaced the DV and tried unplugging the MAF all without any affect on the problem. If you need more info check my post on Help stumbles and then goes into Limp Mode
Steve
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