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TDI with 5 speed

1877 Views 22 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  rsbaker
Does anyone own a TDI (prefferably a Golf) with a five speed? How does the Diesel drive in comparison to say the 2.0 engine because of low rpm's? Please Repond. Thanx
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (Volkswagen Golf)

Fabulous! My chipped TDi has more hp, and a ton more torque. Rev's right to the red line in every gear. * I haven't gone to red in 5th, but @ 3000rpm's I'm going about 90+mph. Test drive one, then drive one w/ a chip, and see. You won't be disappointed.
Re: TDI with 5 speed (Volkswagen Golf)

Exactly the same. Only letting out clutch is a little different. It's easier since you can do it off idle, but at the same time it is easier to stall that way. In that and all other rpm respects it's no concern to get used to driving it but if it helps, just go by the position of the dial on the tach, not the number - and it's just the same.
Only starting in very cold weather and filling it is different, but that's why we have full serve at the same cost as self http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (Volkswagen Golf)

I owned a 2.0 and test drove the TDI several times. They offer similar performance, but you'll find yourself staying in lower gear around town in the TDI vs. a 2.0. The 2.0 has shorter gearing so 5th gear is usable even down to 40 mph or so, which I found didn't work too well in the TDI.
The 2.0 has a marginally better top gear pass, but more noticeable is that it's mechanical throttle and lack of turbo provide a hair-trigger throttle response (even compare to my 1.8T, which is what I eventually bought). Both the TDI and 1.8T have some turbo lag.
On the highway, the 2.0 becomes very noisy and the engine booms loudly near 80 mph. The TDI is much more composed on the highway.
Re: TDI with 5 speed (rsbaker)

I cruise around @30 in 5th in my TDi. And the 2.0 does not have better top gear passing. more torque, better passing. 50-70mph times are much better in the TDi, than the 2.0.
Re: TDI with 5 speed (bawlsyTDi)

quote:[HR][/HR]I cruise around @30 in 5th in my TDi. And the 2.0 does not have better top gear passing. more torque, better passing. 50-70mph times are much better in the TDi, than the 2.0. [HR][/HR]​
Bzzzzzzzzzzt! Thank you for playing.
Top gear acceleration times, 90 hp TDI GOLF vs 2.0 Golf GLS. Gas results from Car and Driver, diesel from Diesel Car:
50-70 mph top gear acceleration
TDI = 11.5 sec, 2.0 = 10.6 sec.
The 2.0 does indeed have "marginally better" top gear passing. No one said anything about "much better".
And TDI RPM's at 30 mph are like 1050 RPM, not much above idle. In fact, the 30-50 mph "top gear" test in the TDI is done with 4th gear in the TDI and 5th gear in the 2.0. The TDI wins this one, but one shouldn't be surprised since it's actually in a lower gear.
Re: TDI with 5 speed (Volkswagen Golf)

Of course everyone left out the fact that while they drive virtually the same (the TDi is more relaxed feeling since its rpms are lower) the TDi will gert twice the fuel economy of the 2.0
Re: TDI with 5 speed (Rapt)

quote:[HR][/HR]Of course everyone left out the fact that while they drive virtually the same (the TDi is more relaxed feeling since its rpms are lower) the TDi will gert twice the fuel economy of the 2.0[HR][/HR]​
I don't agree that they drive anywhere near the same. Spirited driving of both cars will result in comparable performance numbers, but gearing and throttle response make this largely an "apples and oranges" comparison and, to a large degree IMHO, a matter of taste. I'd suggest the original poster go on several test drives and make up their own mind as to which one they like better.
The fuel economy issue is not as clear as you would suggest. In the U.S., where fuel prices are low (locally unleaded regular can be had for $0.89/gallon), it may take 5-8 years (depending on model and annual mileage) before you recoup the additional cost of a TDI in fuel savings.
Re: TDI with 5 speed (rsbaker)

perhaps you forgot to read where I stated my TDi is chipped? Making 116hp and having almost 200ft/lbs of torque, means my top gear acceleration is much better than a 2.0.

bbbbbzzzzzztt thanks for reading
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (bawlsyTDi)

quote:[HR][/HR]perhaps you forgot to read where I stated my TDi is chipped? [HR][/HR]​
I hadn't read your previous post when I responded (the post I was addressing did not mention your chip)
Re: TDI with 5 speed (bawlsyTDi)

quote:[HR][/HR]perhaps you forgot to read where I stated my TDi is chipped? Making 116hp and having almost 200ft/lbs of torque, means my top gear acceleration is much better than a 2.0[HR][/HR]​
Hee. Hee. On second thought, you might take a peek at this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=248348

Evidently the gentleman test drove a 115 P.D. in England (basically the same specifications as your car), and found a chipped 2.0 to be quicker.
I especially liked this quote:
"I'd say that the 2.0 + chip is quicker (and certainly feels a lot lighter and more eager to drive)..."
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (rsbaker)

I own a PD 115, and it has at least 31Nm (about 230 ft lbs) of torque (claimed), which is amost twice what the 2.0 puts out. And in the hills around Nice where I live(d), there are plenty of petrol victims to leave in my puff of smoke.
As I've been lucky enough to have driven petrol 1.6s and 2.0s,(rental cars) I think there really isn't a seat of the pants comparison in my opinion with the PD 115, you have to rev those motors, to get the thrust, with the diesel, it happens quicker.
As for that guy in the UK, Some early 115's were detuned to 29 Nm of torque, but even then, he ravs about the torque in the 115. But then he feels the 2.0's quicker, because he likes revving the motor, and he essentially says as much. You don't need to rev the PDs, so if you like reving gas motors, the plugging along of a diesel may make you think it's slower. and even if it's chipped the 2.0 will not make much beyond 150 ft lbs, so its still short 90 ft lbs... compared to the PD 115, so i think he's slightly delusional,
But you only have 90 hp tdi's in the States, so you absoulutely have to chip them to get anywhere near this amount of torque, and the 5 speed box is not designed for 31 Nm of torque, that's why they've got the 6 speed in them here.
But even if you leave it stock, TDI has more torque (roughly 30%) sooner by 700 rpm than the 2.0, and at low RPM driving, it will make it's difference known.
People driving diesels smile, because they know the experience of torque.
since you mention low rpm driving, it is highly likely that you're not going to associate much weight to 0-60 times. And if you read some of the reviews on http://www.carpoint.com for golfs with 2.0s in them you'll find several saying things like, slow, sluggish, underpowered, and about the TDI, great engine, great torque, stuff like that. So don't take my word for it, or this unbalanced guy from UK, read the reviews for yourself.
Best wishes on your choice

PS, I dont know Union Jack, and I don't know that he's really delusional, it' is not a personal attack- it was an attempt for humor.



[Modified by Wagonuser, 6:46 PM 2-15-2002]
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (Wagonuser)

quote:[HR][/HR]But even if you leave it stock, TDI has more torque (roughly 30%) sooner by 700 rpm than the 2.0, and at low RPM driving, it will make it's difference known.
People driving diesels smile, because they know the experience of torque.
[HR][/HR]​
I was mainly just razzing bawlsyTDi, but your excerpt above is something needs to be commented on: You can't really talk about torque unless you also talk about gearing.
To be precise, the 90 hp TDI has a 27% torque advantage at the crank. On the other hand, the 2.0 has much shorter gears that multiply its crank torque.
The final drive difference alone is 25% which almost balances out the TDI's crank torque. 4th and 5th gears are shorter, too, which actually means that (in stock form) the 2.0 puts [bold]more[/bold] torque to the wheels in these two gears.
Yes, you are correct that the TDI's torque peak occurs 700 RPM's lower than the 2.0, but the 2.0 gearing keeps its engine speed up so that (for a given speed and gear choice), you'll find it right in its power band, too.
Consider the top gear pass from 50-70 mph:
The 2.0 does 122 lb-ft of torque at 2600 RPM vs. 155 lb-ft of torque for the TDI at 1900 RPM. The 2.0 is going about 55 at 2600 RPM in 5th gear, and the TDI is also very close to its torque peak of 1900 RPM at 55 mph, too. Ignore frictional drive-train losses since they are probably neglibly different between the cars.
2.0: 122 * 0.84 (5th gear) * 4.24 = 434 lb-ft at the wheels
TDI: 155 * 0.76 (5th gear) * 3.39 = 399 lb-ft at the wheels
This translates to a 9% advantage for the 2.0, and this corresponds almost exactly with the road test results.
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (rsbaker)

I agree that you must consider gearing, and your formula may have some scientific merit to it. and I don't doubt your integrity in providing accurate information. But we're talking Low RPM driving..... let me repeat that again just for effect, low RPM driving.
Let's then also consider how many normal people drive, many probably short shift, and if the 2.0 is geared lower, and potentially making more engine noise because it's reving higher, at those city speeds then it is my assertion that these normal people will be even further encouraged to short shift, which means they're one gear higher than they're supposed to be (for max torque application) around town. (remember low rpm driving) The TDI delivers the torque without having to keep the rpms up, and the car in a lower gear longer.
This may cause all the lethargic comments you can see in those reviews I mentioned. With respect to a normal person driving a TDI, because it has more torque, and from a lower point, and isn't already revving so much to encourage an upshift, this short shifting habit may be less likely to occur, and even if it does, the motor's still mostly in the torque curve, so lack of acceleration is not as noticable and this driver effect causes all the of the satisfaction that TDI's generate, a simple read thru those reviews will support what I'm saying. I"m not disputing your figures, but your figures don't address what those people experience.
The question was about low rpm driving, so it could be that this person is not used to revving a motor, to extract it's full potential, if this is the case, then I still think the TDI will give a more pleasurable accelleration experience. And the 30-50 test sort of bears this out, as the TDI driver at 30 mph may not even be in 4th yet, and the 2.0 will have upshifted several times because of short shifting to avoid those high(perceived) revs. remember low rpm driving

So let me say this again, at low RPM Driving, the diesel will make it's difference known. I didn't make any claims about freeway passing, I tried my best to talk about low rpm driving, in reference to the original post. So it's not relevant to talk about redlines in this post, even though the 2.0 revs higher. And that crazy guy from the uk didn't mind keeping the revs up, so his experience doesn't apply.
If we consider Bawlsy, who drives around in 5th at 1000 rpm at 30mph, he's obviously somewhat of a short shifter some of the time as he's already tooling around in top gear. If one had similiar behavior in the 2.0, they'd be lugging it around the all over place, and they'd think accelleration in it was massively lethargic. and that it had no power. But if they changed their driving habits,kept it in a lower gear longer, they could extract similiar if not better performance. You have stated the facts to back this up.
I respectfully submit to you, that because the TDI doesn't require one to change ones shortshifting habits, that it will give the better performance around town, especially for those short shifty types like bawlsy
Have a good day
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (Wagonuser)

I pretty much agree with everything you said, except for one thing: the 2.0 really isn't lugging that badly in 30 mph in 5th gear.
I wouldn't drive it that way, but the 2.0 will still go from 30-50 mph in 5th gear in 9.9 seconds (in fact faster than it's 50-70 mph time of 10.5 seconds). As I stated earlier, they don't even try this in 5th gear in the TDI but use 4th instead.
Low-end torque (meaning around 1300-1500 RPM) in the 2.0 is very respectable, especially compared to most other gas 4-bangers. When I owned one, I would sometimes even downshift to 3rd instead of 2nd for taking turns on flats and you'd never try that in a Honda.
I short-shifted the heck out of my 2.0 (5th gear at 40 mph was routine in 50 mph or less zones) and was still happy with the pull I got from the engine. I found I just couldn't do this in my several TDI test drives and still get any pep.



[Modified by rsbaker, 5:34 PM 2-15-2002]
Re: TDI with 5 speed (rsbaker)

I miss my 88.5 Camry V6 5-speed sometimes.
Re: TDI with 5 speed (converted_vw)

quote:[HR][/HR]I miss my 88.5 Camry V6 5-speed sometimes.[HR][/HR]​
I miss my 99 Maxima 5-speed. May she rest in pieces...
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Re: TDI with 5 speed (rsbaker)

while were whining about missed vehicles, i miss my 93 f150 lightning, now that was a rocket!!
Re: TDI with 5 speed (rsbaker)

OK, here's an easy one for the experts, especially for RSBaker, which seems to know the answer.
BTW, forgive my poor knowledge if everybody knows what it is, but...
What does the "final drive" ratio means?
Is it the "gearing" you get when you kickdown to pass on the highway, if you are already, say at 50 mph and want to quickly pass that long 45 ft van?
Thanks a lot in advance for your replies.

[Modified by Nounours, 10:45 PM 2-16-2002]


[Modified by Nounours, 10:45 PM 2-16-2002]
Re: TDI with 5 speed (Nounours)

quote:[HR][/HR]What does the "final drive" ratio means?[HR][/HR]​
The "final drive" ratio basically refers the last gear between your transmission output and the wheels.
The relationship between the engine speed and the wheel speed can be determined via:
Wheel RPM x final drive ratio x gear ratio = Engine RPM
Your engine turns many revolutions for each revolution of the wheel, and the final drive ratio is an important part of determing how many. The TDI has a final drive ratio of 3.39:1 vs 4.24:1 for the 2.0. This means that (other things being equal, which they are in gears 1-3 in these cars), that the 2.0 engine runs 4.24/3.39 = 1.25 times faster at the same vehicle speed.
Gears are the equivalent of levers when dealing with rotational forces (think long handled wrench vs. short handled wrench), so they also multiply forces from the engine crank before they reach the wheels.
I get a kick out of everyone talking about how great the TDI's 155 lb-ft of torque is. It's actually very nice, but if you do the math, you'll see that 155 lb-ft of torque would provide almost no acceleration without some help from the transmission.
To illustrate the point, in 1st gear the TDI puts 155 * 3.78 (1st gear) * 3.39 (final drive) = 1986 lb-ft of torque to the wheels (not adjusting for friction -- typically 12-15% less).
Now you're talking torque...
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