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Hey guys, looks like I'll be in need of a clutch sooner than later. Went out today with my stage II on the highway and slipped pretty good a couple of times, especially when cold. It seemed to hold better when everything was hot, which I find strange.. Anyway, the only options I see for aftermarket clutches is a four puck from APR and a clutch that was used in this build (http://www.redlinespeedworx.com/apr-ttrs-stage-3-build-gtx-3576-650hp-daily-driven/).

Having a 6 puck in previous cars, I'm not sure I want something that hardcore in the TTRS in terms of engagement. I don't mind a stiffer pedal as long as I can slip it. Should I look at options in the UK?

Thanks!
 

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Hey guys, looks like I'll be in need of a clutch sooner than later. Went out today with my stage II on the highway and slipped pretty good a couple of times, especially when cold. It seemed to hold better when everything was hot, which I find strange.. Anyway, the only options I see for aftermarket clutches is a four puck from APR and a clutch that was used in this build (http://www.redlinespeedworx.com/apr-ttrs-stage-3-build-gtx-3576-650hp-daily-driven/).

Having a 6 puck in previous cars, I'm not sure I want something that hardcore in the TTRS in terms of engagement. I don't mind a stiffer pedal as long as I can slip it. Should I look at options in the UK?

Thanks!
How obvious was your clutch slip when cold? Any videos?

I've done some research on the clutch options, and there isn't a clear best option. Some options are:

1) Stock. Many folks report success running the stock clutch on stage 2 (and even stage 3) TT-RS cars if you don't do aggressive launches. There are no reported holding torques published, so it's hard to compare when you get with the "upgrade" clutches over stock. One thing that is great about the stock clutch is that it has a self-adjusting mechanism built into the pressure plate that adjusts for disc wear to keep the preload / engagement consistent. I've yet to see an aftermarket clutch that includes this, which can result in issues down the line as you wear down the disc.

2) Sachs "performance" pressure plate + organic disc. This is rated for "550+ N*m", which is equivalent to 406 ft*lbs. That's barely over the stock torque of ~360 ft*lbs, and well below even a Stage 1 reflash. So again, it's not clear what this clutch buys you over stock, since stock is also organic. Note that most all of the aftermarket clutch options use this Sachs "performance" pressure plate and repaint / rebrand it, with different disc materials. I assume this clutch holds more than stock, and Sachs underrates it. This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel. http://www.sachsperformance.com/Sac...-quattro-250-kW-;-05/2009-:::2_3_538_539.html



3) Sachs "4-puck" racing clutch disc. This is what APR recommends (it supposedly holds 600+ ft*lbs). But due to the reduced friction area, this clutch will not last anywhere near the length of a stock clutch (far less total material that will wear more quickly over time). The 4-puck clutches are known to have more harsh engagement and some chatter when feathering from a start at low RPM. This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel.



4) DXD / South Bend clutch kits. From what I can tell, DXD / South Bend takes the Sachs "performance" pressure plate, paints it red, and then takes OEM discs and removes the center spline section (to re-use) and attaches their own friction materials (depending on the "stage"). I've heard that they have versions that retain the dual-mass flywheel, but most installs seem to go with a single-mass flywheel replacement. The latter has various NVH and engagement smoothness impacts (nothing I wanted to compromise for a daily driver).

5) Dual-disc clutch from 034 Motorsports (Clutchmasters unit currently). 034 is testing their own custom clutch solutions for the TT-RS. I'll let them chime in on any issues with their setup, but IMO this is an "aggressive" racing solution, not a daily driver (it requires changing to a single-mass flywheel).

6) Dual-disc clutch from Helix (UK). They currently make a "race" version that is 215mm in diameter and requires a flywheel change to single-mass, and is unsprung. A few folks in the UK are running these (including "johnnyc"). The "puck" version holds 870 N*m (641 ft*lbf), while their organic face version holds 700 N*m (516 ft*lbf). They are supposedly working on a "street" version in a larger 228mm disc that allows them to fit springs in the twin plate config for smooth engagement for road cars. I suspect though that hanging all of this inertia off of the transmission will be a problem for the synchros, which were designed for a light unspring disc (and a sprung dual-mass flywheel instead).

7) Dual-disc clutch from APR (still in development with no clear timeframe). This is supposedly a carbon/carbon clutch disc setup, with serviceable carbon friction surface inserts. Hard to tell much else until more info is released, but if it's anything like the Stage 3, it will be a long time in the making (and of course worth the wait for those that do).


So after all of that, I'm tempted to just stick with stock (or replace stock with stock if I have slipping issues), because:
1) stock is designed to work with the dual-mass flywheel
2) the stock pressure plate auto-adjusts for even loading / release control as the disc thickness changes over life as it wears

Last thing I want to do is put in an aftermarket clutch, have it work fine today, and then start slipping / develop issues as it wears (plenty of horror stories of those online).

Any other folks have solutions they can share?
 

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See response here by Simon. On the last Trackday back in October he did say his car felt good.

The factory option is the alternative as it would appear that there are still few options on the market at present.

Mine felt like it was slipping some time back however I have had no further issues for a good 20k miles now – am at 58.4k miles at present.

The feeling I got when I thought the clutch was slipping was simply no drive when applying power though revs just built up.

Ohh, and I had a horrid burning smell which lasted a couple of days - as I say, that was a good 20k miles and all been well since.

The thing is to check requires a fair amount of dismantling the car so the best option was to continue driving until failure then we will replace with factory (OE) parts again.
 

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How obvious was your clutch slip when cold? Any videos?

I've done some research on the clutch options, and there isn't a clear best option. Some options are:

1) Stock. Many folks report success running the stock clutch on stage 2 (and even stage 3) TT-RS cars if you don't do aggressive launches. There are no reported holding torques published, so it's hard to compare when you get with the "upgrade" clutches over stock. One thing that is great about the stock clutch is that it has a self-adjusting mechanism built into the pressure plate that adjusts for disc wear to keep the preload / engagement consistent. I've yet to see an aftermarket clutch that includes this, which can result in issues down the line as you wear down the disc.

2) Sachs "performance" pressure plate + organic disc. This is rated for "550+ N*m", which is equivalent to 406 ft*lbs. That's barely over the stock torque of ~360 ft*lbs, and well below even a Stage 1 reflash. So again, it's not clear what this clutch buys you over stock, since stock is also organic. Note that most all of the aftermarket clutch options use this Sachs "performance" pressure plate and repaint / rebrand it, with different disc materials. This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel. http://www.sachsperformance.com/Sac...-quattro-250-kW-;-05/2009-:::2_3_538_539.html

3) Sachs "4-puck" racing clutch disc. This is what APR recommends (it supposedly holds 600+ ft*lbs). But due to the reduced friction area, this clutch will not last anywhere near the length of a stock clutch (far less total material that will wear more quickly over time). This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel.

4) DXD / South Bend clutch kits. From what I can tell, DXD / South Bend takes the Sachs "performance" pressure plate, paints it red, and then takes OEM discs and removes the center spline section (to re-use) and attaches their own friction materials (depending on the "stage"). I've heard that they have versions that retain the dual-mass flywheel, but most installs seem to go with a single-mass flywheel replacement. The latter has various NVH and engagement smoothness impacts (nothing I wanted to compromise for a daily driver).

5) Dual-disc clutch from 034 Motorsports (Clutchmasters unit currently). 034 is testing their own custom clutch solutions for the TT-RS. I'll let them chime in on any issues with their setup, but IMO this is an "aggressive" racing solution, not a daily driver (it requires changing to a single-mass flywheel).

6) Dual-disc clutch from Helix (UK). They currently make a "race" version that is 215mm in diameter and requires a flywheel change to single-mass, and is unsprung. A few folks in the UK are running these (including "johnnyc"). The "puck" version holds 870 N*m (641 ft*lbf), while their organic face version holds 700 N*m (516 ft*lbf). They are supposedly working on a "street" version in a larger 228mm disc that allows them to fit springs in the twin plate config for smooth engagement for road cars. I suspect though that hanging all of this inertia off of the transmission will be a problem for the synchros, which were designed for a light unspring disc (and a sprung dual-mass flywheel instead).

7) Dual-disc clutch from APR (still in development with no clear timeframe). This is supposedly a carbon/carbon clutch disc setup, with serviceable carbon friction surface inserts. Hard to tell much else until more info is released, but if it's anything like the Stage 3, it will be a long time in the making (and of course worth the wait for those that do).


So after all of that, I'm tempted to just stick with stock (or replace stock with stock if I have slipping issues), because:
1) stock is designed to work with the dual-mass flywheel
2) the stock pressure plate auto-adjusts for even loading / release control as the disc thickness changes over life as it wears

Last thing I want to do is put in an aftermarket clutch, have it work fine today, and then start slipping / develop issues as it wears (plenty of horror stories of those online).

Any other folks have solutions they can share?
Thorough and supported with great info...:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

You should have been an engineer...:)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
How obvious was your clutch slip when cold? Any videos?

I've done some research on the clutch options, and there isn't a clear best option. Some options are:

1) Stock. Many folks report success running the stock clutch on stage 2 (and even stage 3) TT-RS cars if you don't do aggressive launches. There are no reported holding torques published, so it's hard to compare when you get with the "upgrade" clutches over stock. One thing that is great about the stock clutch is that it has a self-adjusting mechanism built into the pressure plate that adjusts for disc wear to keep the preload / engagement consistent. I've yet to see an aftermarket clutch that includes this, which can result in issues down the line as you wear down the disc.

2) Sachs "performance" pressure plate + organic disc. This is rated for "550+ N*m", which is equivalent to 406 ft*lbs. That's barely over the stock torque of ~360 ft*lbs, and well below even a Stage 1 reflash. So again, it's not clear what this clutch buys you over stock, since stock is also organic. Note that most all of the aftermarket clutch options use this Sachs "performance" pressure plate and repaint / rebrand it, with different disc materials. This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel. http://www.sachsperformance.com/Sac...-quattro-250-kW-;-05/2009-:::2_3_538_539.html

3) Sachs "4-puck" racing clutch disc. This is what APR recommends (it supposedly holds 600+ ft*lbs). But due to the reduced friction area, this clutch will not last anywhere near the length of a stock clutch (far less total material that will wear more quickly over time). This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel.

4) DXD / South Bend clutch kits. From what I can tell, DXD / South Bend takes the Sachs "performance" pressure plate, paints it red, and then takes OEM discs and removes the center spline section (to re-use) and attaches their own friction materials (depending on the "stage"). I've heard that they have versions that retain the dual-mass flywheel, but most installs seem to go with a single-mass flywheel replacement. The latter has various NVH and engagement smoothness impacts (nothing I wanted to compromise for a daily driver).

5) Dual-disc clutch from 034 Motorsports (Clutchmasters unit currently). 034 is testing their own custom clutch solutions for the TT-RS. I'll let them chime in on any issues with their setup, but IMO this is an "aggressive" racing solution, not a daily driver (it requires changing to a single-mass flywheel).

6) Dual-disc clutch from Helix (UK). They currently make a "race" version that is 215mm in diameter and requires a flywheel change to single-mass, and is unsprung. A few folks in the UK are running these (including "johnnyc"). The "puck" version holds 870 N*m (641 ft*lbf), while their organic face version holds 700 N*m (516 ft*lbf). They are supposedly working on a "street" version in a larger 228mm disc that allows them to fit springs in the twin plate config for smooth engagement for road cars. I suspect though that hanging all of this inertia off of the transmission will be a problem for the synchros, which were designed for a light unspring disc (and a sprung dual-mass flywheel instead).

7) Dual-disc clutch from APR (still in development with no clear timeframe). This is supposedly a carbon/carbon clutch disc setup, with serviceable carbon friction surface inserts. Hard to tell much else until more info is released, but if it's anything like the Stage 3, it will be a long time in the making (and of course worth the wait for those that do).


So after all of that, I'm tempted to just stick with stock (or replace stock with stock if I have slipping issues), because:
1) stock is designed to work with the dual-mass flywheel
2) the stock pressure plate auto-adjusts for even loading / release control as the disc thickness changes over life as it wears

Last thing I want to do is put in an aftermarket clutch, have it work fine today, and then start slipping / develop issues as it wears (plenty of horror stories of those online).

Any other folks have solutions they can share?
Thanks Marty, that's some great info you compiled. So I started noticing the slipping this week, the car now has 15k miles and when I go out and floor it at 3k rpms on the highway third gear, the revs will jump to 5k or so and then go back to 3k within a second. Once I did two runs like this it wouldn't do this anymore. It doesn't seem to do this in the lower gears... and yes, I would spell burnt clutch afterwards. Maybe I'll try and get a video of it with my phone.. but honestly I don't like doing this do to the fact it's killing the clutch faster with each slip!

Having high HP cars in past, it's all about trade off's with these clutches. I'll look into your suggestions and hopefully others can reply with their experiences.


Dave
 

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Having high HP cars in past, it's all about trade off's with these clutches.
Exactly... I'm very hesitant to put something in that hasn't been widely tested and confirmed to last. This is one of the challenges with modding a relatively low volume car like the TT-RS...

Personally, my ideal would be to keep the stock dual-mass flywheel, an organic disc (for street smoothness), and just swap in a version of the OEM auto-adjusting pressure plate that has, say 30-50% more clamping pressure (and just live with some increased pedal effort).

Why nobody make such a solution, I don't know... maybe we can contact LUK and go all-in to have them make a higher clamping load version of their stock pressure plate? :)

You can see the auto-adjusting ring mechanism on the stock pressure plate in these photos:







Other side of stock clutch disc:



HEY, does that DXD / SouthBend disc center section below look familiar? :D

 

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Discussion Starter #7
That's pretty slick with the stock adjusting pressure plate, never seen anything like that before, go figure! :) I wonder if that's another trade off and will cause reduced clamping force when the disk wears. I wonder if a standard style PP would clamp better...but what happens when the disk wears and there is no adjusting screw on the pedal to adjust for it manually (since its designed to be auto adjusting on the pressure plate). Yes, I see what you mean by keeping the stock style clutch. Ideally, I'd think keeping the stock organic disk and dual mass flywheel but go with a heavy duty pressure plate. This is not an easy decision and we know the labor involved to try experimenting can be costly.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Personally, my ideal would be to keep the stock dual-mass flywheel, an organic disc (for street smoothness), and just swap in a version of the OEM auto-adjusting pressure plate that has, say 30-50% more clamping pressure (and just live with some increased pedal effort).

Why nobody make such a solution, I don't know... maybe we can contact LUK and go all-in to have them make a higher clamping load version of their stock pressure plate? :)
That's funny, just realized you said the same thing I did!.. Yes, maybe one of us should try contacting LUK and have them mod the stock PP and make it stiffer and heavy duty.
 

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1) I managed to completely slip my clutch playing around with the Launch Control feature in my UM Stage 2 tune. The car wouldn't move under its own power until it cooled down. Smelled like burnt clutch for weeks afterwards. It drives okay now, but I don't trust it for full power/attack/track mode type driving.

2) I have a 215mm twin plate, organic clutch and steel flywheel kit from Helix Motorsports UK sitting in my garage, ready to go in the car. Helix was great to work with via email. They answered all of my questions and provided information so that I could decide which clutch setup would be best for my usage. The 215mm twin plate/disc clutch and flywheel kit from Helix weighs about 13.5Kg. If I want to go more to a more aggressive clutch setup, Helix can provide the paddle type clutch discs to install, using the same clutch cover assembly as the organic disc kit. The proof will be once I have the Helix twin plate/disc clutch installed, but so far I would highly recommend Helix Motorsports UK.

3) At independent VW/Audi shops, I have gotten quotes ranging from $1000-$1200 to R&R the clutch (price is without any parts). I am either going to do the clutch install myself or break down and take it to a shop for the work around the first of the year.

4) Sachs does offer a HD, uprated pressure plate for the stock DMF. However, if you read the specs, the Sachs units are not rated for the torque of a Stage 2 or 3 TT-RS. Yes, they may "work", but you are going to be pushing the clutch past its design limits.


One additional point regarding the options from Helix... The original "race" version was 200mm. The new, more street friendly version is 215mm, not 225mm. This is per an email sent directly to me by one of the Engineers who works for Helix.
 

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Slipping clutch

I have also experienced the soft clutch syndrome after a track day up at willow springs while driving home on the highway. I got home and went through all the options like you are now. However, I have yet to experience the slippage again. I spoke with the folks at Loba motor sports and they basically told me that there really isn't a clutch option that is mellow for the street at this point. The engagement on the sachs unit and anything that clutchmasters has to hold the torque will be annoying if you are dealing with any hills or traffic on the daily commute. I am in san diego and often experience the joys of bumper to bumper traffic on the i-5, so there is no way I could possible do it. If it happens again, I'll probably just replace the clutch with a stock unit.
 

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One additional point regarding the options from Helix... The original "race" version was 200mm. The new, more street friendly version is 215mm, not 225mm. This is per an email sent directly to me by one of the Engineers who works for Helix.
Interesting. Accordingly to my conversations with the Helix engineers, their current 215 mm version was designed to be "used for racing", even though they have an organic version available that holds less torque than the puck type (700 N*m vs. 870 N*m). They also specifically said they were working on a 228mm version for pure road cars (the street version) that will take 6 months+, and would have a sprung center (vs. the solid center of the race 215mm version).

I'm pretty sure that what you have is the existing 215mm solid center race version, but with the organic friction surface.
 

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Interesting. Accordingly to my conversations with the Helix engineers, their current 215 mm version was designed to be "used for racing", even though they have an organic version available that holds less torque than the puck type (700 N*m vs. 870 N*m). They also specifically said they were working on a 228mm version for pure road cars (the street version) that will take 6 months+, and would have a sprung center (vs. the solid center of the race 215mm version).

I'm pretty sure that what you have is the existing 215mm solid center race version, but with the organic friction surface.
"more street friendly" is the operative phrase... Helix may be working on a real "street" clutch, but the 215mm version which I have was designed to be easier to modulate than the original 200mm setup due to more inertia (I assume).

I will see how it works out in the next couple of months, one way or the other :)
 

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"more street friendly" is the operative phrase... Helix may be working on a real "street" clutch, but the 215mm version which I have was designed to be easier to modulate than the original 200mm setup due to more inertia (I assume).

I will see how it works out in the next couple of months, one way or the other :)
When do you think you'll install the Helix clutch? Would love to hear how well it works and feels.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
"more street friendly" is the operative phrase... Helix may be working on a real "street" clutch, but the 215mm version which I have was designed to be easier to modulate than the original 200mm setup due to more inertia (I assume).

I will see how it works out in the next couple of months, one way or the other :)
I also would love to hear your experiences.. I don't think my clutch can wait 6+ months lol. It slipped again on the highway in 4th twice and then started grabbing fine after that. Is there pictures of it online, couldn't find it on Helix's website.
 

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I'd really like to hear more about the twin full face plate Helix clutch. Is it sprung?
The current 215mm Helix offering is NOT sprung. Their streetable version that is 6+ months out will supposedly make *one* of the two clutch discs sprung.

Here are some pics of the Helix 215mm option, both the 6-puck and the organic faced discs:




 

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Here are couple of additional pictures of the actual Helix 215mm twin disc organic faced clutch kit which I have for my TT-RS. The plan is to have it installed by early Jan. I will post up results.



 

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Effect of temp on torque for APR Stage 1 and 2

Colder temperatures raises the torque considerably and I assume that is pushing some cars over the 475 lb ft clutch limit. Has anyone measured the torque increase with temperature, such as winter driving on APR stage 1 & 2? Does the APR software limit the torque increase as temperatures drop to winter levels? Assuming very little knock at winter temps, what is the limiting factor for generating and transmitting torque - software, fuel or fuel cut, clutch capacity? Seems like more engine control might be needed to reduce clutch slippage in cars that get driven in the winter.
 

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Thanks for the pictures and information guys! The Helix website doesn't reveal very much. I look forward to hearing your experiences with it, especially if there is any extra transmission wear with the (assumed) extra mass and unsprung plates. I don't know first hand, but isn't there more potential to damage a gear?
 
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