[H2OSB]

Greetings folks. I'm curious what you 1st gen guys use for performance improvement with the upper strut mount? I know the very earliest cars had the rubber part that could be removed and VW Motorsport had a higher durometer replacement, but I also know those mounts are incredibly difficult to come by. Eurosport sells polyurethane, of which I have a set, however, for MY application, even though they fit into the mount on the top side, they're too tall overall, and would need to be turned down on a lathe, which I do not have. Also, I wouldn't know how much material to remove(I suppose they could simply be made the same height as the factory rubber one.) ALSO, those urethane bushings are HARD. Might as well be delrin. The Fox had very similar mount and I read some years back it fit and was slightly higher durometer. I just purchased two different brands of the Fox version to try. I've also looked at Porsche 944 mounts, but they're a bit too spendy to just experiment with(Fox part, ~$5; 944 part,~$110).

For the record, this is for my autocross prepped Super Beetle. I started a thread about this in the Vortex aircooled section several years ago, but the only response I received was suggestion of urethane. I'd really like to explore harder rubber options before I resort to urethane.

If any of you have given this any thoughts for your Mk1 car, I would appreciate any input

Thanks
H2OSB

 

[ToddA1]

Other than the Fox mounts, I’m unaware of a drop-in rubber solution. Autotech used to make poly drop in, but they stopped years ago.

I‘m thinking you have Prothane poly, which were nothing like the originals. If the bearing cup fits inside, I’d think it’d just be shaping the exterior to mimic your OE rubber ring.

-Todd

 

[thegave]

I have K-Mac camber adjustable mounts which are just pillow bearings encased in polyurethane. There really isn't a middle-ground option, unless you can source the early, rebuildable strut mounts and find the poly inserts. 944 mounts don't really work. There has been a lot of research into this, covered in other threads. I think this one is one of the more comprehensive ones:

Early style strut mount rebuild thread

I recently purchased a set of early style strut mounts for my MKII Scirocco. Here is a picture of the original set. After cleaning them up with the bead blaster and a coat or two of SEM and clear coat they came out nice. http://i87.photobucket.com/alb...2.jpg...

www.vwvortex.com

 

[Dr.Jeff]

this is for my autocross prepped Super Beetle

I believe you're referring to the Super Beetle having the same style of "rebuildable" mounts as some very early Mk1's. It's the type with a replaceable rubber ring, and the Super Beetle has the same dimension ring as the early Mk1. However I've read that the rubber ring utilized on the Super Beetle was actually a softer compound than the ring used on the Mk1's. And that would make sense considering the huge difference in weight between the front end of a rear engine Beetle vs a FWD Mk1. Therefore utilizing a stock Mk1 ring in a Super Beetle would be an upgrade.

A couple years ago I was able to find new stock-replacement rubber rings for the Mk1. Not OEM "VW" but from a aftermarket supplier....the exact same as the stock rings on Mk1s. I don't know if any are still available but they were not hard to find when I looked and purchased a couple sets.

If the rubber "Mk1" ones are NLA then your next best option might be to make (or have made) urethane ones with a lower Duro material than the super hard ones you already have. It isn't that difficult or expensive to do, especially if you have a used rubber one to make a mold from.

 

[ToddA1]

944 mounts don't really work.

Why do you say that? I’ve never used them, but I’ve used/own many early mounts and these look more correct than the Fox or Prothane stuff. OP only wants the inners for his SB mounts.

From memory the SB mount is a bit shorter, but I think this would still fit the domed housing fine. Who cares if the inner cup is bonded… it’s bonded on the Fox mount, and it works ok. I say ok because the left Fox mount appears to have failed on the GTI. Need to pull it apart to see what happened.

-Todd

 

[H2OSB]

Wow guys, ty for your contributions. I sold my last watercooled car in the early 2000s so I don't regularly check this forum, and thus didn't know this subject was a big deal for the mk1 crowd. Great info, and certainly something I can work from.

Interestingly, I made the coilovers for my Super from 944 struts. I bought used, complete unit to start with thus had the upper mounts. The rubber in those struts was most certainly squishier than my Super mounts...but did seem to fit.

Thanks again. Please keep it coming
H2OSB

 

[Dr.Jeff]

Wow guys, ty for your contributions. I sold my last watercooled car in the early 2000s so I don't regularly check this forum, and thus didn't know this subject was a big deal for the mk1 crowd. Great info, and certainly something I can work from.

Interestingly, I made the coilovers for my Super from 944 struts. I bought used, complete unit to start with thus had the upper mounts. The rubber in those struts was most certainly squishier than my Super mounts...but did seem to fit.

Thanks again. Please keep it coming
H2OSB

"The rubber in those struts was most certainly squishier than my Super mounts"
That might be due to a difference in their history. I have a set of rubber mounts with very little use on them but spent their entire life in a hot and dry desert climate, plus they are extremely old. So the rubber looks like new but has turned hard...harder than urethane, almost sold. Perhaps your 944 rubbers were much fresher than your Super rubbers, making the 944's seem softer now even if they were not originally.

 

[ToddA1]

Great info, and certainly something I can work from.

I went through the linked thread last night and you posted in it. You have the most current info, so I’d try either the Fox mounts or new 944 mounts.… no clue why you’d compare used parts to new. There were several people who said the 944 mount was more firm than the Fox mounts.

I say ok because the left Fox mount appears to have failed on the GTI. Need to pull it apart to see what happened.

I saw I was the last to post in that thread, with pretty much the same comment. I haven’t looked into it, but I did notice that I’m using the A4 top hat, which is taller than the correct part… no clue why I did that. Some of the gap may be attributed to that, but the left side definitely has more gap than the right. Something is amiss.

-Todd

 

[H2OSB]

The only issue with trying 944 mounts is the cost. I have no issue spending $110-$120 per side if I know they'll work, but that's too much to experiment with.

I saw in the old thread I'd posted in it. I can't remember what ever happened with the Fox mounts I bought back then. I have so much to do on my Super I probably got sidetracked and moved on to a different aspect of the project. I literally hadn't thought about this until another Super owner asked me the other day if there was anything better than stock style mounts.

Incidentally, I wasn't comparing old 944 rubber rings to new Super rings. I estimated they were of similar vintage, and the Super rubber felt similar to new ones. The 944 rings, otoh, did not feel weathered or brittle, just softer than I'd expected, based on the nature of the car they came out of.

I did order two different brands of Fox mounts, and I should have them in hand soon. I'll take some pics and post my findings.

H2SOB

 

[ToddA1]

The only issue with trying 944 mounts is the cost. I have no issue spending $110-$120 per side

Is that what they’re up to now…? It’s an old thread, but I thought they were in the $50 range (per side), when I read through it.

Meh… just use the poly, if you don’t like the Fox mounts. It’s a race car!

-Todd

 

[Butcher]

With the latest exhaust mount and urethane tricks, are upper mounts really a problem anymore?

 

[matty kirk]

With the latest exhaust mount and urethane tricks, are upper mounts really a problem anymore?

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the urethane trick?

 

[H2OSB]

Not sure what you mean by exhaust mount tricks. I, personally, never had an issue with upper strut mounts, but then, I play with the front suspension so much, the mounts are always new or near new.

I'm the guy who started SuperBeetles Only! in the 90s(co-founder, to be truthful) so I get quite few people asking to help solve issues they run into. About 2 weeks ago, I got a PM asking what to do about inadequate strut mounts on a hard driven Super Beetle. It's been years since I'd given it any thought, but I did look into it some years back based upon my posting in the thread linked above. As I've stated, I do autocross my car, so solving this would be helpful.

Most people don't want some crazy custom part, myself included(someday, I'll post the story of my front brakes). I'd love to have an answer I can just rattle off, but I prefer not make suggestions I haven't tried myself.

I have no issue using polyurethane bushes. They are actually, pretty much, the savior of the Super Beetle front suspension. If you've ever heard of or experienced the Super Beetle death shake, you'll know what I mean. That said, Super Beetles are so far out of production, very few companies support THIS tiny aspect of "sport tuning" of the Super Beetle suspension. I'd love to come up with an easy solution I can share. VW Motorsport used to sell a drop in, higher durometer rubber ring meant for the A1 cars that worked a treat, but now VWM doesn't support anything older than an A3.

H2OSB

 

[H2OSB]

I'd like to know this too(about urethane tricks...my "quote" didn't work)

H2OSB

 

[Butcher]

Stiffer front strut bushings...do they exist??

I've been searching for weeks for polyurethane front strut bushings for mk1, but as most will assume, i've had no luck. I'm sure there is an obvious explanation for this based on the construction of the OEM assembly, but unfortunately i'm ignorant as to how they go together and what...

www.vwvortex.com

Another way to reinforce Mk1 strut mounts

I picked this trick up in the Scirocco forums. It serves the same purpose as adding a bead of 3M Window Weld Urethane to the underside of the strut mount to keep the rubber from collapsing, a known problem with "all" aftermarket mounts. Look here...

www.vwvortex.com

 

[LT1M21Stingray]

I, personally, never had an issue with upper strut mounts, but then, ...

They never last.

 

[H2OSB]

Ahh, ok. Unfortunately this wouldn't work for a Super. The rubber is solid. There is no air space to be filled.

I may need to do a bit more research. It just dawned on me I may be trying to solve a non-existent issue.

Supers used two types of upper mounts. The early style WOULD kinda push up through the metal part when the rubber was worn out, but the late style has a metal part, similar to the Mk1, that bolts to the car, and a metal part that is attached to the strut shaft(with the bearing). These two parts sandwich the rubber donut betwixt them. I'm thinking the solution for the early suspension guys is to simply use the later mount. It does bolt right in. And for the later suspension guys...there may not be an issue.

Thanks all
H2OSB

 

[Dr.Jeff]

It appears some people are posting without reading what this thread is really about. And that is confusing the issue unnecessarily.

As I understand it, this is not about the common Mk1 upper mounts we normally discuss here. It is about the "Super Beetle mounts" which are the same design as the very early Mk1 "rebuildable" mounts (see the link by @thegave in post #3, and example pic shown below). The SB mount used the same dimension rubber bushing ('doughnut') as the Mk1 mount. So I believe the question is if there is a better alternative for that particular aspect of this specific type mount from a Mk1 that can be used on a SB. Exhaust hangers, urethane tricks, and other mods do not apply to this discussion, as they are for the completely different design of later Mk1 mount.

Early Mk1 rebuildable mounts:

In addition to the VWM upgrade part there was a aftermarket company (Bonrath) that also made improved rubber bushings for "rebuildable" style mounts. However those might have been part of their own mount design and not a direct replacement for the VW part? I don't recall (pic below).

Bonrath mounts, with their upgraded rubber bushings:

The aftermarket urethane bushings for the Mk1 rebuildable mounts:

Euro Sport Polyurethane Front Strut mount Bushing Kit - VW Mk1 Rabbit/Scirocco 1975-1976

Mk1 Poly Front Strut mount Bushing Kit. These bushings work only for the early VW upper strut mount steel housings that are rebuildable design. Fitment:VW Mk1 Rabbit/Scirocco 1975 1976

www.eurosportacc.com

Here is a older discussion about using the Fox bushings in the rebuildable Mk1 mounts. There's some other info in there as well:

Early Rabbit/Dasher Rebuidable strut mount housings with...

Thanks to Southcross for noticing the possibility on the rebuildable strut mount thread :beer: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4265114-Early-style-strut-mount-rebuild-thread Went and picked up a set of Fox strut mounts Part # ZBA412351 (about $10 at autohausaz.com) and test fitted...

www.vwvortex.com

Someone please remind me, are the Audi 80-90 bushings another option here? Or the Mk4 bushings? I remember trying a few different bushings for these rebuildable mounts. Some needed rubber material trimmed off the upper area in order to fit, others ended up with a very different overall height (much taller which raised the car considerably), and still others did not fit at all. However then I found stock replacements and used them.

 

[H2OSB]

Posted in error. Please delete

 

[H2OSB]

Dr Jeff, you clearly understand what I'm asking about. Your synopsis was a better explanation than I could have done myself. The images you posted display the EXACT rubber parts I'm referring to and looking for. If I could get my hands one of each, I'm sure something suitable could be found.

As I've stated several times, I ordered two different brands of VW Fox mounts and am just waiting for them to arrive. If they work, I'm gonna call it good.

I actually contacted the guy who got me thinking about this again, earlier tonight. I'm still not certain how his mounts have failed, other than his saying they rattle excessively, but his car is a '74 like mine, thus uses the same mounts as mine, so this could potentially help him.

Thank you Dr Jeff, I appreciate your input.
H2OSB