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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I thought I would stir this topic up a bit... time to bring this back for the 8v guys thinking about real performance :)

First of all I want to start with no dis-respect to all of you that have the turbo running on your 8v. We have many turbo customers and we appreciate the business and support.
I have done more than a few myself and they can at times run correctly and be fun.
Still this combination is slower than a supercharger on this engine can cause some serious nightmares and frustration.

I've owned and ran many a turbo car...I have one right now. I'm switching back to SC. As you all know we sell both turbo kits and supercharger kits.

* The G60 8V engine has very heavy weight internal parts.
* The crank, rods, pistons and even the harmonic balancer are very heavy and I mean very heavy, tank like.
* These parts and the engine were specifically engineered for instant, smooth and the long boost curve of a supercharger. The management is also designed and engineered for the boost of a supercharger. This is a very important part of this.
* The power band on the G60 8v is short...they pull to about 6k RPM. The turbo just starts to go at about the mid point of the RPM band.
* The flow of the head works better with the smooth linear boost of the supercharger.
* The digifant 1 G60 management system can have some serious issues trying to deal with the boost curve spiking in and out, jumping around.
* Any turbo is just a lower performance option, less torque and really works against what was intended here.

I've done a few of these set ups in our shop here and sold at a least a dozen turbo kits for the G60. So I'm speaking from experience.

The best choice for this engine is the good old g-lader or another positive displacement supercharger.

Bottom line, the turbo on this engine will not match the performance of the supercharger FACT!

I've had a $1000 dollars on the table for anyone that can beat our 1/4 mile time with a supercharger on the G60 8v engine running the digifant management, stock engine internals. The money has sat on the table for now over 10 years!

Ok, lets flames away.... :)
 

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Ok I'll bite :D.

Things I absolutely agree with:

1: heavy internals; yes they are and yes it can cause spooling problems especially with a big journal bearing turbo.

2: management; the factory digi 1 ECU is without question set up for the supercharger and the timing curve especially is not turbo friendly.

I don't agree with:

1: Cylinder head flow; Who says you can't have smooth linear boost with a turbo? :screwy: That's what electronic boost control is for.

2: Power band; Ok the power band is done at 6000 rpms.... big deal, just match the turbo to the power band. I mean come on, stop and think about it, deisels have a narrow power band, and oh wait a minute they also have very heavy internals. But there are turbo deisels out there that make HUGE power.

Other comments on turbo vs super:

Turbos are lighter than superchargers and don't eat power to make power. They are also capable of producing and sustaining FAR more boost than a supercharger. They are however more complicated to install in general.

Comments concerning Digifant 1 engine management in general:

It's technology that is well over 20 years old, it's fairly primitive and the boards are known to fail. I have over 20 Digi 1 ECUs that are burnt up in a box in the garage. ANY standalone system currently on the market that can control fuel and spark is more capable than Digi 1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Ok I'll bite :D.

Things I absolutely agree with:

1: heavy internals; yes they are and yes it can cause spooling problems especially with a big journal bearing turbo.

2: management; the factory digi 1 ECU is without question set up for the supercharger and the timing curve especially is not turbo friendly.

I don't agree with:

1: Cylinder head flow; Who says you can't have smooth linear boost with a turbo? :screwy: That's what electronic boost control is for.

2: Power band; Ok the power band is done at 6000 rpms.... big deal, just match the turbo to the power band. I mean come on, stop and think about it, deisels have a narrow power band, and oh wait a minute they also have very heavy internals. But there are turbo deisels out there that make HUGE power.

Other comments on turbo vs super:

Turbos are lighter than superchargers and don't eat power to make power. They are also capable of producing and sustaining FAR more boost than a supercharger. They are however more complicated to install in general.

Comments concerning Digifant 1 engine management in general:

It's technology that is well over 20 years old, it's fairly primitive and the boards are known to fail. I have over 20 Digi 1 ECUs that are burnt up in a box in the garage. ANY standalone system currently on the market that can control fuel and spark is more capable than Digi 1.
Thank you for biting back :)

* My point with the head flow is that it is limited. The turbo will boost up and try to cram more air than the head can flow and hold it back.

* Your diesel comparo is jut not apples to apples. These engines and vehicles get seriously loaded to assist in getting the boost up early.

* The old argument that supers take power to turn is really just null and void. Every action of energy requires a equal action... A turbo takes exhaust energy and will hold back the flow to make it. The power consumption is their for both. It is really just about making it efficiently.

* Your weight point is also really not something that will make a substantial improvement on performance. Pretty sure they are really close to the same weight.

If someone can make a Stock G60v turbo on stock management run quicker on this engine than the BBM Twin Screw... I have $1000 bucks to give them.

I have had maybe 6+ turbo cars and I hate the lag....shift....wait...wait...ah boost. Shift.....wait....wait boost. This really sucks on the 8v and makes them slower!
Even the small ball bearing turbos lag...
Supercharger comes on like a light switch and nearly instant. Makes for a very quick car and an amazing match for the 8v.

The bottom line is that a supercharger is quicker on this engine and to this day it is still a fact.
My main reason for this post is that most people just think otherwise and get caught up in all the turbo hype.
I'd choose a really good supercharged engine over any turbo engine every time.
 

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Turbo lag .... It's a thing of the past and there's a ton of ways to get around it now. It's a privilege to have driven a Saab 900 turbo and a 930 turbo. Those motors come alive when the turbo spools up. It's a little embarrassing off the line though.

The bottom line is that early turbo cars didn't have the technology (ecu) or turbine technology that's available today. With that being said, a turbo can easily exceed the limits of a G Ladder. If you put a turbo on a car engineered (ecu) and designed (G60 head flowed for 158 hp) for a positive displacement charger (G Ladder / Lysholm, etc) limits are set on it's performance. Beyond that throw better parts, tuning & cash at anything and you can remedy the turbo lag a turbo G60 is inherent to. Specificly I think that's what Johnny's say'n
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I have had cars with the latest and greatest ball bearing turbo tech...they still lag and take time to come on.
Unless you go really small... even then there is a pause for the boost to hit.
I think the best modern match for a turbo is a car with an automated manual. That keeps them in the boost.

I'll up my anti....
Take a stock G60 engine run any turbo you want with any stand alone.
I'll still put my money on the supercharger on this engine.
Turbo no matter what, does not match this engine as well as a supercharger.
 

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I have had cars with the latest and greatest ball bearing turbo tech...they still lag and take time to come on.
Unless you go really small... even then there is a pause for the boost to hit.
I think the best modern match for a turbo is a car with an automated manual. That keeps them in the boost.

I'll up my anti....
Take a stock G60 engine run any turbo you want with any stand alone.
I'll still put my money on the supercharger on this engine.
Turbo no matter what, does not match this engine as well as a supercharger.
Damn and I don't have a single PG laying around any more. The last one went to the scrapper in my totalled 90 rado. (as extra weight/money)
 

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One thing you stated concerning the PG cylinder head I'm not going to argue too hard about, it is somewhat limited flow wise but that is inherent to most mass produced OEM 2V/cylinder heads.

And please don't misunderstand me, I like forced induction PERIOD :cool:. Turbo, supercharger they both rock. I do think the G-Lader is a misbegotten POS, great idea in theory with horrid execution in reality. Scroll compressors are quite efficient, just ask the A/C industry, but definately not so good for a supercharger.
 

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I never thought about that. I'm running a Lysholm on my LG (fridge).

That's the intrigue of the G60 though. Just the fact that it runs despite all it's shortcomings.

The grey market 914-6 I ran a 2.7 w/ 2x3 webers. I enjoyed that same freak as what's going on in my G60. It's a hell of a lot more comfortable not having a 225 hp motor inches away from your back. On 90+ days its was no fun to sit in a black, air cooled car at a stoplight. On the other hand it's the only car you can drive in the rain above 60mph with the top off and stay dry.

Just the fact my G60 is in performance running condition shocks the $/:! out of most who know what it is. The more obsolete the G60 becomes the higher its value. That's just a VW & Porsche factiod.
 

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Power band

Hi there folk's i think it's a battle of delivery,so everyone is good.you chose between instant power or vtec type of power,my self having run both i like them for diferent reasons like drag i would go turbo but circuit with lots of turns i like the sc.daily drive also would like a sc,later guys Roderick
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Damn and I don't have a single PG laying around any more. The last one went to the scrapper in my totalled 90 rado. (as extra weight/money)
We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR
Wish we would have kept a few now...:banghead:
 

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I've still got the one that I pulled out of my Syncro with 589,000 on it. I replaced it with an ABA and I have to say, the ABA with the G60 hauls my Syncro Wagon much, much faster but I wouldn't switch to a turbo for the life of me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I've still got the one that I pulled out of my Syncro with 589,000 on it. I replaced it with an ABA and I have to say, the ABA with the G60 hauls my Syncro Wagon much, much faster but I wouldn't switch to a turbo for the life of me.
now is that in km ore miles :laugh:
the ABA is a nice engine too...10% more displacement, lighter internals and great rod stroke ratio.
ok, old timer...just how old are you?
we have had a few customers up in Canada that did the G60 swap into their syncro vanagons...those guys love this engine for the meaty torque.
:thumbup: to the north :)
 

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We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR
Wish we would have kept a few now...:banghead:

Man I wish more than anything you guys were still up here.. :(

Bought a g60 a year ago and I was also just recently informed you were in auburn, where I live. Could have walked down to your shop with my charger...forget shipping.
Good thing it needs apex strips now that you're in another state! :facepalm:

Either way, I have to agree with you; I love the G-lader and would prefer it over a turbo any day- For this motor at least. Everyone else seems to tell me otherwise, and ensure me my charger is going to blow up...Guess they're Jealous. Haha, 20k since a rebuild from you guys and still going strong-ish. Even without 4" of apex strips :thumbup:
 

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Why could full throttle shifting not alleviate the lag? Good porting of the head and intake manifold with big valves would help wouldn't it? I am building a g60t right now and this thread caught my eye..

Also, you said stock internals but let's here some specifics for this challenge. Any weight reductions? Flywheel mods?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Why could full throttle shifting not alleviate the lag? Good porting of the head and intake manifold with big valves would help wouldn't it? I am building a g60t right now and this thread caught my eye..

Also, you said stock internals but let's here some specifics for this challenge. Any weight reductions? Flywheel mods?
Your going to full throttle shift with a cable actuated 02A. Hope you have a twelve pack of spare transmissions on hand.

Sure you could do a lightweight flywheel and harmonic balancer....still no go and little chance.:)
You see if you do this with a turbo...well then only fair that it would be done on the supercharger engine that it went against. So turbo will still loose. I'd bet the super engine would still whoop it even with it running a light weight flywheel and balancer.
 

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I don't think too many people have a otherwise stock PG converted to turbo. Pretty much all of them end up being some sort of ABA/PG Hybrid turbo. Or even mostly a 2.0 ABA with a turbo and running Digi 1 management. And then almost always some sort of aftermarket cam, and head porting.

It kinda gets to a point when you say, well If I'm changing the head to a crossflow, the G-lader to a turbo and the management to standalone, why not just build a 16v turbo and produce way more power for not much more money?

And that said, if you want to run a fast 1/4 mile time why start with an 8v counter flow? Why not at least start with a 16v or for that matter a VR6 swap is quite easy to source these days, and a budget turbo build on one of them can make a quick 300hp. Hell if you're running standalone anyways, you could put a 1.8T right into your what ever trans your running behind your G60. You could probably buy a complete 1.8T with reasonable miles for about the same as a good turbo to put on an 8v.

I no longer look at this thing as "what can I do with this engine", I look at it like "how fast can I go for X amount of dollars"
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I don't think too many people have a otherwise stock PG converted to turbo. Pretty much all of them end up being some sort of ABA/PG Hybrid turbo. Or even mostly a 2.0 ABA with a turbo and running Digi 1 management. And then almost always some sort of aftermarket cam, and head porting.

It kinda gets to a point when you say, well If I'm changing the head to a crossflow, the G-lader to a turbo and the management to standalone, why not just build a 16v turbo and produce way more power for not much more money?

And that said, if you want to run a fast 1/4 mile time why start with an 8v counter flow? Why not at least start with a 16v or for that matter a VR6 swap is quite easy to source these days, and a budget turbo build on one of them can make a quick 300hp. Hell if you're running standalone anyways, you could put a 1.8T right into your what ever trans your running behind your G60. You could probably buy a complete 1.8T with reasonable miles for about the same as a good turbo to put on an 8v.

I no longer look at this thing as "what can I do with this engine", I look at it like "how fast can I go for X amount of dollars"
I will agree, yes people do all kinds of crazy combos and builds in these VW's.
However I do not agree that most people do all of these crazy custom combinations.
And this is coming from one of the companies that probably makes and sells more crazy combo parts than any other.
The vast majority of people just do bolt on parts and performance...
And yes if some do go crazy with their builds, most people go with the better flowing 16v and 20v engines.
Your point about how fast you can go for X amount of dollars is a good one. Time labor and parts are all part of this equation. So the best bang for your bucks is to keep the G60 8V and strap up a good modified g-lader or the BBM twin screw. :)
 

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now is that in km ore miles :laugh:
the ABA is a nice engine too...10% more displacement, lighter internals and great rod stroke ratio.
ok, old timer...just how old are you?
we have had a few customers up in Canada that did the G60 swap into their syncro vanagons...those guys love this engine for the meaty torque.
:thumbup: to the north :)
It's in km, but it was the original PG that I finally yanked out. ABA with a 13lb flywheel is really nice. It's going to be expensive in gas if I don't stop driving the living hell out of it like I have been the last 4 days.

I am old enough to know better and young enough to do it again. I could not believe how much difference that 7 or 8 lbs off the flywheel and that extra little bit of displacement made. Next stop, aluminum pulley set.

Here's a serious question for you though. Would the change to the ABA account for a drop in boost pressure? When I pulled the PG out (7 months ago) the charger made 11-12lbs. Stage 3 charger, RSR outlet, rebuilt by you in 2010, stock pulley (I was too lazy to swap the 68 back on and was hoping running the stock pulley would prolong its life). Now that the 2.0L is in there, its making 8-9lbs of boost. Sounds fine, not blowing huge amounts of oil or anything.

Also, should I upgrade my injectors? I'm pretty sure that they are stock sized ones.
 
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