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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Yes, the 2.0L ABA is 10% larger so 10% less boost with the same size of charger pulley.
At the boost level you are at the stock injectors are just fine. :)
 

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QUOTE
JBETZ
I've done a few of these set ups in our shop here and sold at a least a dozen turbo kits for the G60. So I'm speaking from experience.
If you never seen any turbo produce a qtr mile time better then the charger guys what is the best you have seen done? Of course with stock internals etc like you mentioned at your shop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 · (Edited)
QUOTE

If you never seen any turbo produce a qtr mile time better then the charger guys what is the best you have seen done? Of course with stock internals etc like you mentioned at your shop.
I'll be honest with you. I have never ran one myself at the track....a G60 turbo that is. Ran many of turbo cars tho. I can tell you this I've seen and raced some at the track....they are horribly slower and I mean horribly!

We held an event called Autoblitzkrieg at the Woodburn Or. drag strip... I think four or five years back. I had the $1000 dolla deal down for the ABA 8V Mk3 guys. We ended up racing two identical Mk3 GTI's. Ours had the twin screw BBM Stage III supercharger and the other car had the Kinetic / CTS Turbo Stage III kit. We both ran the exact same tires. Both cars were at about the same hp, the turbo car had a bit more hp.
We smoked this car so bad... I actually felt bad. Beat it by over 1 full sec on the 1/4 mile track.
These were equal weight, same engine, same tires....same cars. I mean it wasn't even close...it was a slaughter!
Superchargers on the 8v are quick!
To answer your question....haven't ever seen one get into the 13's, they pretty much suck on the G60 engine.
"edit" turbos pretty much suck on all 8v's. Unless you want to spend a ton of money and try to prove something, bad match for the 8'v.
 

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I have a hard time believing that a good turbo build couldn't out quarter mile a G60 equipped 8v. But the problem is most turbo PG's I can find use at least ABA heads. (for obvious reasons, but this shouldn't really equal any more power, just easier turbo and intake placement. Valves and ports are the same size. But lots of these ABA/PG 1.80 turbo's put down around 190-210whp.

I've seen dyno charts for ABA turbos putting down 240+ hp. With a head spacer and under 15psi boost. Also seen ABA turbos with forged pistons putting down closer to 275-300hp on high boost and standalone. How can these cars not be faster?

But then again I have my doubts too many people have done too serious a Turbo counterflow, where would you put the turbo? Tiny little ones fit, but one that could support 20+psi likely wouldn't fit under the intake.


I do know that when my G60 finally goes boom (the charger not the tall block) I will likely be doing something turbo. Either ABA, or 16v/ABA hybrid, or just 16v, hell maybe even VRT. Although a billet displacer could be awfully cool, and maybe would allow for a smaller pulley? The problem I have is almost all my friends have moved onto faster, newer cars. 10 years ago my G60 MKII was competitive or faster then their cars (all running somewhere in the 14's to low 15's, stuff like an H22 and B16 powered EG civic's ) Now they all have cars like MazdaSpeed3, Cobalt SS Turbo, MKV GTi w/APR + bolt ons.

I've been using nitrous for the last 3 years just too keep pace. And let me tell you the G60 with a 55hp shot is basically the same (very slightly quicker) as the APR GTI in a roll on, and still slower then the Cobalt Turbo (beast of engine in those things). So it's become clear I'm going to need somewhere like +75-100hp what my car makes now. (guessing a 68mm an ported charger, it's like 165whp ish)


If I go 16vT, I'd like to keep running Digi 1 since I'm familiar with it. New injectors, and a 16v turbo chip and it should be possible right? Maybe I need to talk to BBM about a 16v/ABA G60...now that's cool :thumbup:

It's come down to put together a more powerful engine, or sell the VW and move on to something else. :banghead: (But after over a decade with this car, I'm attached to it like a marriage)
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Yes, more hp does not make for a quicker car... When we were running our drag Scirocco it would beat turbo cars that had much more hp, even cars that had an additional 100 hp. This red Honda was claiming to make over 350hp. We were making about 240 wheel hp. This chart shows the torque difference and the turbo still has more wheel hp. Also you have to account for turbo lag and believe me turbo lag is always a big deal when going up against a supercharged car.



 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
prof315 brought up diesel's.

Imagine a big diesel truck running a 300 hp 280 torque gasoline small block Chevy engine.
The truck would be soooo slow...it might barely even move.

The diesel engine lets say also makes 300 hp...but it also makes 600 ft. lbs of torque. Point being torque is really what moves a vehicle. Hp is a measurement of work performed over a time period. Torque is the ability to turn and move. Torque is key to a quick car....and superchargers rule in the torque dept. The PG G60 engine was engineered for torque, so matches the supercharger perfectly. :)
 

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I'm still not convinced that a PG turbo with a modern ball bearing turbo matched to the powerband and a good exhaust manifold won't at least equal the performance/ 1/4 mile times of a supercharged car. Sooner or later I'm sure to wind up with another PG and I'll have to try.... :D

As far as efficiency goes though, sorry turbos have superchargers beat hands down. Fact: a typical supercharger eats between 15%-50% of the crankshaft horsepower while a turbo only takes 3% to 10%. Example: The MASSIVE roots blower on a 7000hp top fuel dragster requires between 750hp and 1000hp to spin up to 50psi!
 

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Orig owner 90 g60, 02 allroad 6SP M w/ 3rd Row, 07 3X White NB Vert, 09 Escalade ESV Plat to tow em
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Proofs in the pudding. Pudding eating contest below :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Lysholm is the apidamy of efficiency. For its time the G-Ladder was impressive. Modifications to increase boost was the writing on the wall for its demise.


Lysholm 1200A Supercharger

Garrett GT32

Garrett GT32 Press vs Flow

I used the Garrett GT32 as comparison since it's the hot ticket in turbine technology. The charts are the best way to compare apples to apples. For obtaining immediate, cost effective boost at low rpm on a PG (G60) motor, a supercharger is the way to go. A turbo will get you there and more but, the PG was not designed for the characteristics of a turbine from the factory.

Adiabatic Efficiency:
Screw Compressor Approx. 80%
G-Ladder Approx. 60%
GT32 Approx 68% - Heat soak will decrease this rating proportionally
 

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Actually Borg Warner EFR turbos are the current cutting edge in the turbo industry. (We won't talk about their supply problems though :mad:) I'm pretty sure that a 6258 on a good manifold would hold it's own vs a twinscrew on a PG.
 

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I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end if you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.

A turbo can smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs a lot more to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the identical or greater performance characteristics. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).

Don't buy a kit, none of them out there are worth what they want for them, put one together yourself its easy, here is a quick list for ya:

turbo exhaust mani (with or without external waistegate flange thats up to you)
turbo of your choice
sns chip (give them your specs and they burn them for ya)
cone filter
boost controller (turbosmart has a nice manual one that works great and is around 100 bucks)
piping-----------exhust shop can throw something nice together
downpipe--------some exhust shops can help or point you to someone who can
anything I am forgetting?
also some things that are nice to help tune are a boost gauge, a/f guage, and a egt gauge anyway if you need anymore help just let me know, I went down this road last year.......
 

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For me it was easy......both can and will grenade given enough time and abuse or digi fail. I rather replace a $300 turbo than a $1200 g60. I have never had the pleasure of owning a lysholm but the ability to turn into a paper weight instantly scares the sh!t out of me
 

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I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end if you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.

A turbo can smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs a lot more to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the identical or greater performance characteristics. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).
What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!
 

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Love me the turbo(s), just not for the G60 unless I swap to a 20V. I just rolled 100,000 clicks on the 2.7t and can't wait to Stg II or III it as part of the maintenance. If there was some way to hang a

  • turbo
  • intake
  • and then chip
the stock PG motor and get the linear torque curve of the Allroad or s/c'd G60, I'd build it next. Show me some dyno runs sheets for just hanging a Borg Warner EFR or 6258 on a G60 and I'm a believer.
 

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I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.
 

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Allroad 2.7T...what turbo lag? :thumbup:

Hell I don't know how people say the 1.8T is laggy, but the one in my old Beetle 1.8T was pretty decent, you could feel it spool up but it was a very fast spool, by the time you did a quick clutch slip launch, it was at full chat. Unlike other turbo cars I have driven extensively. Like a XR4Ti, Mitsu Eclipse, WRX, hell even that Cobalt 2.0T, is like zzzzzzz snore...pfffftthsh...holy F*ckin sh1T. But with no lift shift, that car never drops out of boost once spooled, it's stupid fast for what it is. Faster then a modded GTI and Mazdaspeed, WRX, etc.

Then again with a S/C I don't need no lift shift, full boost as fast as you can get your foot to the floor. Maybe Jbetz is right on this supercharger thing after all. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!
turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
those essentials.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.
sure if you wanted to try to prove some point and spend thousands of extra dollars just to do it...
at this point you might as well install a 16v, 20v or vr6.
 

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turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
those essentials.
Ok, but not another $1000-$1500 that's for sure.
 
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