VW Vortex - Volkswagen Forum banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
VW manual trannies suck. If you think otherwise, you probably haven't driven anything but a VW. The shift quality generally ranks from average to bad, and it seems that never they can never get it right.
The solution, I believe, lies in throwing the cable shifter out and adopting a drive-by-wire shift linkage. Every aspect of the manual transmission is unchanged accept that there is no mechanical linkage between the stick and the transmission. Instead, when you shift you actually just trip a switch in the shifter and solenoids on the tranny actually engages the gears. Such a system has the following advantages:-
(1) Because there is no cables, rods or hydraulics, you can make the shifter as light, as precise and with as short a throw as you like. You can also design the gate pattern anyway you like regardless of how the actually push/pulling is done on the tranny side (say get rid of the weird reverse positions).
(2) Because there is no mechanical linkage, you can totally eliminate gear grinding. When you move the stick into position for a particular gear, the system will not actually fire the solenoid to kick it into that gear unless either the clutch has been depressed or the vehicle speed matches the proper engine speed for that gear. So basically, you can drive it like every other manual using the clutch in the normal fashion, but if you try to monkey around by not using the clutch you will still not be able to grind gears. You can't grind because unless your revs matches vehicle speed the system simply takes you out of the former gear and keep you in neutral until your revs match or until you use the clutch sufficiently before kicking into the gear you have just selected. However, since the clutch action is fully mechanical, the driver still fully controls the coupling and decoupling of the engine; this is not Tiptronic, not by a long shot!
(3) The system does not require any modification or re-engineering of the current transmissions. Basically, all you need is a new shifter group in the cabin, a solenoid assembly attaching to the tranny where your shift cables usually go, and an electronics box that reads the speedometer value, rpm value, and a sensor at the clutch pedal. The electronics and logic involved is no more complex than a $5 handheld calculator with basic +-*/ functions.


[Modified by DwightLooi, 2:05 PM 2-10-2002]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,024 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (DwightLooi)

Why use a complex mechanism when a couple of cables (or rods) will do??? There are lots of manual transmissions out there that shift quite nicely without going to all this trouble. It's worth doing for a World Rally car but seems hardly worth it for a daily driver.
I despise the use of complex mechanisms in place of simple ones for no real benefit. I'll take a couple of cables and levers over a whole whack of sensors, wiring, ECU, and motorized actuators ANY day. (And no, my car does not have ABS, nor automatic tranny, nor do I want either ... and if my TDI engine had good old fashioned mechanical pump control instead of drive by wire I wouldn't be too distressed)
 

· Registered
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (GoFaster)

quote:[HR][/HR]Why use a complex mechanism when a couple of cables (or rods) will do??? There are lots of manual transmissions out there that shift quite nicely without going to all this trouble. It's worth doing for a World Rally car but seems hardly worth it for a daily driver.
I despise the use of complex mechanisms in place of simple ones for no real benefit. I'll take a couple of cables and levers over a whole whack of sensors, wiring, ECU, and motorized actuators ANY day. (And no, my car does not have ABS, nor automatic tranny, nor do I want either ... and if my TDI engine had good old fashioned mechanical pump control instead of drive by wire I wouldn't be too distressed)
[HR][/HR]​
Because...
(1) The system isn't much more complicated than say turn signals. As far as the electronics go, it can probably be handled by an additional 50 lines of code in the existing ECU, or it can have a simple stand-alone box costing $5.
(2) Unlike cable linkages which can wear out and need adjustment every couple of years, electronics are less likely to fail and does not "degrade" over time due to wear. If the throttle can be electronically conveyed, so can the shift linkage. For all practical purposes it should be more durable and reliable compared to DBW throttles since unlike the throttle it does not have a large number of positions but rather each gear is actuated in an on-off fashion.
(3) There is are actual functional advantages, so the system is not a mere gismo. Companies spend development time and additional production cost in improving the mechanical shift-lnkage anyway, and implementing an electronic one doesn't take more time or cost more money than a decent mechanical one.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,024 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (DwightLooi)

What you're proposing is a lot more complicated to do than you think it is. Perhaps the existing ECU could handle it, and no the switches are not complicated, but the wiring and actuators are, and when you add it all up, it would be quite a complicated (and expensive) mechanism.
As far as reliability of electrical / electronic devices versus mechanical?
- Ask any B4 Passat owner who has had the power supply for the instrument cluster fail. (Me. And countless others. VW won't admit design problems.) This is a solid state component that in their infinite wisdom, is soldered to the circuit board. SOMEBODY didn't do thorough enough cold weather testing.
- Ask any of the THOUSANDS of A4-chassis Golf/Jetta who have had a MAF sensor fail. Solid state component loses again. (And VW won't admit that there is a design problem here, either.)
- Ask anyone who has had a power window mechanism fail. Yes, it's a mechanical piece that usually breaks, but why do the manual versions almost never fail?
- Take a look at any car on the road that's 5 years old, and find out if all the switches work properly. My cruise control "resume" does not work. I have been ignoring the problem. The more stuff there is, the more stuff there is to break down.
- Finally, IF a mechanical shift mechanism fails, it is usually possible with a not too great deal of head-scratching to figure out what the nature of the problem is, and maybe even fix it yourself, and it will be a LOT less expensive than replacing a fancy motorized actuator.
I have never - NEVER - had a mechanical component let go on any vehicle I have ever owned (not counting parts that have a finite wear life i.e. brakes, clutches, etc.). (Knock on wood.) I have had electrical or electronic problems on EVERY vehicle I have ever owned except my '78 Civic which had such a simple electrical system that there really wasn't anything to fail.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,383 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (DwightLooi)

Uh, why not? Because we don't want a $15,000 option?
What you are describing is how the Ferrari F1 system works. The computer controls the mechanical shifting. Only, once you have that, might as well just use paddles or buttons to shift up/down instead of the "stick". Why? You can hit a button a hell of alot faster than you can move a gear shift lever!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (JLJetta)

quote:[HR][/HR]
Uh, why not? Because we don't want a $15,000 option?
What you are describing is how the Ferrari F1 system works. The computer controls the mechanical shifting. Only, once you have that, might as well just use paddles or buttons to shift up/down instead of the "stick". Why? You can hit a button a hell of alot faster than you can move a gear shift lever![HR][/HR]​
There is a big difference between having an electronic shift linkage and a automated manual transmission. Firstly, the system doesn't touch the clutch; that is still worked by the driver just like in a basic manual tranny. Secondly, the system does not decide when and to what gear to shift; it simply convey's the driver's instructions to the transmission. The complexity and difficulty in developing manumatic gearboxes lies mainly in getting the clutch actuation and shifting program right, an electronic shift linkage alone does neither of these things.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,777 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (DwightLooi)

Someone in Europe sells an aftermarket part for cable shifted cars that do this and even better-it uses a sequential pattern instead of an H pattern. I saw it in Performance VW. After you put one on you can let the rest of us know if it was worth it.
Or buy an old bug that had the manumatic, I forget what it was called but it had a stick and no clutch, sort of backwards from your idea but just as complicated. They quit building it because they all broke.


[Modified by Jason4, 3:32 AM 3-5-2002]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,769 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (DwightLooi)

there are plenty many cars with cable shifters that shift like a wet dream.. I'll start naming one, you can finish: Acura . . .
(As well as some other Honda products that use cables)
My friend's GTI shifts like a dream also, compared to my car, at least.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,383 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (WannaCorrado)

Oh god, I can not STAND acura ( integra ) shifters. They might as well not be connected to anything.. no feedback, no control.
It's just as bad as an over-boosted steering on a Caddy/Buick.
Now, the nice notch-notch feel of a Miata is great. You KNOW when the teeth are just starting to engage, etc.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,024 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (JLJetta)

Best shifter I've had on a vehicle I've actually owned was my '84 Toyota Truck. Yep, the lever was long and so were the throws, and the lever vibrated the same frequency as the engine. But by golly you knew what gear you were in, because that lever went straight thru the floor and right into the tranny. Best manual shift mechanism you can have. Not possible with transverse engine / front drive.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (GoFaster)

Man, don't we all remember those old RWD cars with direct acting shifters mounted on the trannies themselves. Basically, the engine is longitudal with the transmission is right between the driver and passenger footwells, the shifter is mounted on the transmission itself (hence no linkage) and pokes through to the cabin via a boot covered hole in the central tunnel. They shake with the engine and tranny, but they sure are 100% on feed back. Some are notchy as hell, others are quite good, but all feel exceptionally connected!!!



[Modified by DwightLooi, 5:05 PM 3-5-2002]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
738 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (GoFaster)

^^^^ well put. could u imagine what the cost for replacing/diagnosing the system would be??? lets stick with a couple cables/rods for now ok thank u so much.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Call me crazy, but I really LIKE the VW manual shift. For me, it's much more responsive than the Hondas and Toyotas I've used.
I really regret getting the tiptronic on my Passat, I'd much rather have the stick.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,999 Posts
Re: (bsenka)

My VW manual shifter is a lot better than the one in the old Nissan Altima that I used to drive.
Microswitches break down based on the number computer joysticks I had to replace over the years. KISS is a good rule to follow.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
28,732 Posts
Re: Why not use a drive-by-wire manual transmission? (DwightLooi)

Quote, originally posted by DwightLooi »
VW manual trannies suck. If you think otherwise, you probably haven't driven anything but a VW.

I don't think they are terribly bad. I've driven lots of different manual transmission cars (VW, Audi, Volvo, Honda, Mercedes). The Mercedes was the worst; the Hondas were slightly better than the VWs, Audi, and Volvo.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top